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June 1997 Archives B



Just something :-) (617)

Posted by Hal/Wally in 2000 on June 08, 1997 at 05:25:35 PDT

I just wanted to tell you that it is 6 days till I get to meet the Cap. gods themselves, Waid and Garney. Tell you all if I find out anything about whats going to happen when they come back.

Hal/Wally in 2000



Diary of a Madman (618)

Posted by Batroc on June 08, 1997 at 06:27:23 PDT

>>>Yesterday and today, featured what I belive was Nashville's
first comic convention, sponsored by Awesome Entertainment and
featuring Rob Liefield. Despite Rob's presence, I had to go. Find
some difficult to obtain back issues, see some old friends, and ask
questions about GEORGE MAXON.
>>>As I got closer, I thought about Bucky's subliminal post, "Death to
Liefield" Did it need to be done? I mean the suits at Marvel had
already saved Cap from Liefield. What would happen to Jamie if I
killed his idol. No one had ever assasinated a comic person before,
but the if it were to occur, someone would probably start w/Liefield.
>>>I worked my way through the fans and dealers. Stopping each person
I saw and asking, "What do you know about George Maxon?" I drew closer
and closer to Robbie boy. What would happen? He might die if I made
him re-read his run on Cap. That would be cruel and unusual punishment
and get me the chair.
>>>Suddenly, a burly police officer grabbed me. "That's the one,officer.
He keeps ranting about someone called George Maxon!". "Come along
buddy", the policeman snarled as he threw me into the mall parking lot.
Sorry, Bucky. I failed you. ...Batroc.



Waid/Garney Cap? (619)

Posted by Steven O'Connell on June 08, 1997 at 08:14:37 PDT

Question...
I stopped reading Cap a while back...What issues did Waid and Garney
work on?

I might want to pick them up in the back issue bin (If I can find them)
If not did Marvel release a trade paperback? If so, could someone
supply me the title?



Re: Diary of a Madman (620)

Posted by The Plaid Skull on June 08, 1997 at 09:48:29 PDT
in reply to Diary of a Madman (618), posted by Batroc on June 08, 1997 at 06:27:23 PDT

> >>>Yesterday and today, featured what I belive was Nashville's
> first comic convention, sponsored by Awesome Entertainment and
> featuring Rob Liefield. Despite Rob's presence, I had to go. Find
> some difficult to obtain back issues, see some old friends, and ask
> questions about GEORGE MAXON.
> >>>As I got closer, I thought about Bucky's subliminal post, "Death to
> Liefield" Did it need to be done? I mean the suits at Marvel had
> already saved Cap from Liefield. What would happen to Jamie if I
> killed his idol. No one had ever assasinated a comic person before,
> but the if it were to occur, someone would probably start w/Liefield.
> >>>I worked my way through the fans and dealers. Stopping each person
> I saw and asking, "What do you know about George Maxon?" I drew closer
> and closer to Robbie boy. What would happen? He might die if I made
> him re-read his run on Cap. That would be cruel and unusual punishment
> and get me the chair.
> >>>Suddenly, a burly police officer grabbed me. "That's the one,officer.
> He keeps ranting about someone called George Maxon!". "Come along
> buddy", the policeman snarled as he threw me into the mall parking lot.
> Sorry, Bucky. I failed you. ...Batroc.

*sigh* That's what you get for asking about the first genocidal maniac to dawn the Red Skull! When are you going to learn that asking about old nazis is gonna get you into trouble? In the future my decendent should build a Teriminator robot to go after Liefield and force him to read every single book he's written! That'll teach him! Speaking of Diary wouldn't it be cool if they had a one shot or four shot of the Red Skull's diary? Like the Osborn Journals except that Schmidt's life is more extensive! Like a four parter! That would be cool!


Cya
The Plaid Skull


Whenever there is injustice, tyranny, ruthlessness...the Plaid Skull was there!!!



Re: Waid/Garney Cap? (621)

Posted by Rob on June 08, 1997 at 10:50:38 PDT
in reply to Waid/Garney Cap? (619), posted by Steven O'Connell on June 08, 1997 at 08:14:37 PDT


> Question...
> I stopped reading Cap a while back...What issues did Waid and Garney
> work on?

> I might want to pick them up in the back issue bin (If I can find them)
> If not did Marvel release a trade paperback? If so, could someone
> supply me the title?


Waid & Garney did Cap #444-454. I think #454 was the final issue of the series before the numbering re-started. I've only read their first two so far & wasn't impressed. I've recently gotten #448-453 for around 25 cents each at a convention...I imagine you could find these issues (as well as the last ten year's worth of Caps) pretty cheaply.

I nominate Garney's #448 as one of the worst covers in Cap history. And Cap practically tries to decapitate the Red Skull in this issue. Maybe when I get the Waid/Garney issues that I'm missing (#446, 447, 454), & actually sit down & read their run, i might enjoy it more, but from just looking through some of it, it doesn't look like it deserves all the praise it gets.

Rob



Re: Just something :-) (622)

Posted by Roscoe on June 08, 1997 at 22:17:40 PDT
in reply to Just something :-) (617), posted by Hal/Wally in 2000 on June 08, 1997 at 05:25:35 PDT

> I just wanted to tell you that it is 6 days till I get to meet the Cap. gods themselves, Waid and Garney. Tell you all if I find out anything about whats going to happen when they come back.

> Hal/Wally in 2000

I really enjoyed Waid and Garney's work on Captain America. However, the Cap pantheon of gods includes only 4 people.

Joe Simon
Jack Kirby
Stan Lee
Mark Gruenwald

That's it. Maybe Waid and Garney can join in 15 years, but we'll have to wait till then to find out.

-Roscoe

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Re: Waid/Garney Cap? (623)

Posted by Roscoe on June 08, 1997 at 22:22:37 PDT
in reply to Re: Waid/Garney Cap? (621), posted by Rob on June 08, 1997 at 10:50:38 PDT

>
> > Question...
> > I stopped reading Cap a while back...What issues did Waid and Garney
> > work on?

> > I might want to pick them up in the back issue bin (If I can find them)
> > If not did Marvel release a trade paperback? If so, could someone
> > supply me the title?

>
> Waid & Garney did Cap #444-454. I think #454 was the final issue of the series before the numbering re-started. I've only read their first two so far & wasn't impressed. I've recently gotten #448-453 for around 25 cents each at a convention...I imagine you could find these issues (as well as the last ten year's worth of Caps) pretty cheaply.

> I nominate Garney's #448 as one of the worst covers in Cap history. And Cap practically tries to decapitate the Red Skull in this issue. Maybe when I get the Waid/Garney issues that I'm missing (#446, 447, 454), & actually sit down & read their run, i might enjoy it more, but from just looking through some of it, it doesn't look like it deserves all the praise it gets.

> Rob

Cap creaming the Red Skull was a little extreme. Yeah, the cover of #448 isn't great, but Garney had some seriously great covers. His first, with the shield lying on the steps to the Lincoln Memorial was very nice (except for the horrible Dragon Power Cards add in the top corner, or whatever that was). The cover of the next issue (#445 I think) is one of the best ever. Seriously, this is a great cover. Both covers for #450 are nice and the last two covers are really nice as well.

I really enjoyed the Waid/Garney Cap and wish it had continued long enough for Waid to get into the Cap supporting characters, etc. As it was it ended just as he had finished his storyline about Sharon Carter (who should have remained long dead, that was a big mistake).

-Roscoe

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Hold on a second! (624)

Posted by Hal/Wally in 2000 on June 09, 1997 at 06:24:57 PDT
in reply to Re: Waid/Garney Cap? (621), posted by Rob on June 08, 1997 at 10:50:38 PDT


>
> > Question...
> > I stopped reading Cap a while back...What issues did Waid and Garney
> > work on?

> > I might want to pick them up in the back issue bin (If I can find them)
> > If not did Marvel release a trade paperback? If so, could someone
> > supply me the title?

>
> Waid & Garney did Cap #444-454. I think #454 was the final issue of the series before the numbering re-started. I've only read their first two so far & wasn't impressed. I've recently gotten #448-453 for around 25 cents each at a convention...I imagine you could find these issues (as well as the last ten year's worth of Caps) pretty cheaply.

> I nominate Garney's #448 as one of the worst covers in Cap history. And Cap practically tries to decapitate the Red Skull in this issue. Maybe when I get the Waid/Garney issues that I'm missing (#446, 447, 454), & actually sit down & read their run, i might enjoy it more, but from just looking through some of it, it doesn't look like it deserves all the praise it gets.

> Rob

Ok first of any Garney cover was 1000 times better than any of the Robsuck covers! As for the above question yes there is a TB but I do not rember the titile. As for you paying 25 cents for some Waid Caps. can you please get me some more, I have never seen them priced that low! Usually 450 is six bucks.
As for the story in the Waid/Garney cap. it had to be hand downs some of the best stuff in many of years for cap. I can hardly wait till August when once again we will be able to read there outstanding work.. As for the cover of #448 I tought it was ok.

Hal/Wally in 2000

Host = 205.245.112.67 (205.245.112.67)



Hold on a second! (625)

Posted by Hal/Wally in 2000 on June 09, 1997 at 06:26:09 PDT
in reply to Re: Waid/Garney Cap? (621), posted by Rob on June 08, 1997 at 10:50:38 PDT


>
> > Question...
> > I stopped reading Cap a while back...What issues did Waid and Garney
> > work on?

> > I might want to pick them up in the back issue bin (If I can find them)
> > If not did Marvel release a trade paperback? If so, could someone
> > supply me the title?

>
> Waid & Garney did Cap #444-454. I think #454 was the final issue of the series before the numbering re-started. I've only read their first two so far & wasn't impressed. I've recently gotten #448-453 for around 25 cents each at a convention...I imagine you could find these issues (as well as the last ten year's worth of Caps) pretty cheaply.

> I nominate Garney's #448 as one of the worst covers in Cap history. And Cap practically tries to decapitate the Red Skull in this issue. Maybe when I get the Waid/Garney issues that I'm missing (#446, 447, 454), & actually sit down & read their run, i might enjoy it more, but from just looking through some of it, it doesn't look like it deserves all the praise it gets.

> Rob

Ok first of any Garney cover was 1000 times better than any of the Robsuck covers! As for the above question yes there is a TB but I do not rember the titile. As for you paying 25 cents for some Waid Caps. can you please get me some more, I have never seen them priced that low! Usually 450 is six bucks.
As for the story in the Waid/Garney cap. it had to be hand downs some of the best stuff in many of years for cap. I can hardly wait till August when once again we will be able to read there outstanding work.. As for the cover of #448 I tought it was ok.

Hal/Wally in 2000

Host = 205.245.112.67 (205.245.112.67)



Operation: Rebirth (626)

Posted by Hiroshi on June 09, 1997 at 09:29:08 PDT

I think that's the title of the TPB, "Operation:Rebirth" that is. Actually Garney skipped an issue somewhere between 444-454. It was the tie-in issue to the Zodiac storyline also running in the Avengers, Thor, and Iron Man titles that month.
Hiroshi

Host = 199.222.162.39 (199.222.162.39)



Operation:Rebirth (627)

Posted by Hiroshi on June 09, 1997 at 09:31:08 PDT
in reply to Waid/Garney Cap? (619), posted by Steven O'Connell on June 08, 1997 at 08:14:37 PDT

> Question...
> I stopped reading Cap a while back...What issues did Waid and Garney
> work on?

> I might want to pick them up in the back issue bin (If I can find them)
> If not did Marvel release a trade paperback? If so, could someone
> supply me the title?

Sorry, I failed to post it as a followup to your message. Again, I think the TPB is title "Operation: Rebirth" which was the running title for the story arc.
Hiroshi

Host = 199.222.162.39 (199.222.162.39)



Re:Death to Liefeld! (628)

Posted by Hiroshi on June 09, 1997 at 09:33:53 PDT
in reply to Death to Liefeld! (590), posted by Bucky on June 06, 1997 at 10:20:07 PDT

> Ha! That scummy bastard Liefeld is off Cap! That loser not only desecrated Cap's uniform with that stupid winged thing on his head, but the storyline was absolutely pathetic! And now he thinks we're supposed to feel sorry for him and buy his crappy 'Agent America?' Not a chance! Who's with me?
> Bucky

I don't usually condone violence as a way of solving problems, but in Liefeld's case I'll make a big exception!
Hiroshi

Host = 199.222.162.39 (199.222.162.39)



There's nothing wrong with the BEE GEES! (no text) (629)

Posted by Hiroshi on June 09, 1997 at 09:35:48 PDT
in reply to Re: Come on David.... (608), posted by David Medinnus on June 06, 1997 at 19:25:16 PDT

>
> > ....but David...would you at least agree that he deserves maiming or at least a good whupping????
>
> How about a compromise...make him listen to 400 hours of Bee Gees?

> Nahh. Kill him first. More humane. :)

> -DM

Host = 199.222.162.39 (199.222.162.39)



Cap at Planet Hollywood in Myrtle Beach, SC (630)

Posted by Hiroshi on June 09, 1997 at 09:43:04 PDT

Guys,
I recently paid a visit to Planet Hollywood in Myrtle Beach, SC and what did I see there?! Captain America! No kidding! Actually it was a dummy (of the manaquin variety, not a brainless model) trussed up in a Captain America uniform. But there was one not so slight problem. He was wearing what looked like white fruit-of-the-loom underwear with red stripes painted on them!! I just about broke out screaming when I saw that! What a travesty! So I am officially boycotting Planet Hollywood until they correct this heinous defamation! Their foods too darn expensive anyway!! And their menu sucks!!
Hiroshi

Host = 199.222.162.39 (199.222.162.39)



Buying Cap issues cheaply (631)

Posted by Rob on June 09, 1997 at 12:07:31 PDT
in reply to Hold on a second! (625), posted by Hal/Wally in 2000 on June 09, 1997 at 06:26:09 PDT


> Ok first of any Garney cover was 1000 times better than any of the Robsuck covers! As for the above question yes there is a TB but I do not rember the titile. As for you paying 25 cents for some Waid Caps. can you please get me some more, I have never seen them priced that low! Usually 450 is six bucks.

> Hal/Wally in 2000


Whoa...I would never pay six bucks for #450. In fact, I've rarely paid over 5 bucks for a comic. I had a big long article over on the DC & Marvel boards here and I am going to be re-posting it on the Miscellaneous board at the Jonah Weiland site about buying comics cheap. I got #448-453 for 25 cents each at a convention a few weeks ago. Recently a store in my area began selling a huge amount of random back-issues of various comics for ten cents each. The problem is, one has to dig thru all those boxes to find the good stuff, and most people don't bother. Apparently not every area has a small convention every month or two like where I live. My advice is to check out to see if there are conventions in your area & check out the cheap-boxes at local shops. Last year, I only had three issues of Cap between #350 to #454. Since February of this year, I went looking for Caps at local conventions and now I only need 26 issues to have every issue from #350 to #454. All for a quarter each, all acquired at conventions.

Rob


Host = i275.driveninc.com (207.142.98.75)



The Red Skull Diaries!!! (632)

Posted by The Plaid Skull on June 09, 1997 at 12:08:25 PDT

I think there should be such thing as the Red Skull diaries! A good insight of why and how he actually became so evil and what's his motivation and his evil exploits! It should be a 4 parter LS because the Red Skull's life is so extensive in diary form like the Osbron Journlas! I mean Spidey's enemy got a one-shot, so did Cable's, and so did the Jackal why can't Cap's enemy have one?!! I think it would be great!!


Cya
The Plaid Skull


Whenever there is injustice, tyranny, ruthlessness...the Plaid Skull was there!!!

Host = bak-ca2-11.ix.netcom.com (204.32.156.75)



Advice for Waid/Garney (633)

Posted by Rob on June 09, 1997 at 12:40:26 PDT

Well, I just looked through #448-453 finally...skimming in some places, reading thoroughly in other places (basically I liked the stuff where it involved the people talking -- like Cap talking to the Prez -- and not so much the fight-scene stuff). And so, I have to say that I enjoyed some bits (Machinesmith in the Prez's "football," for example) and not so much other bits.

I liked some of the dialogue, but some of it got on my nerves. I still don't understand why Sharon calls Cap "Rogers" instead of "Steve." It doesn't ring true. I see from the letters-pages that some readers had a problem with Sharon's hair (I simply didn't like the Pam Anderson look) and I'd agree that a short cut would be more appropriate for her present edgy style. Not that I liked that change; I preferred the old Sharon. I have a problem whenever people don't show Cap the respect he deserves. And Sharon should already be well-aware that Cap deserves respect in the fighting dept.

Some of the dialogue doesn't ring true...sounds like a writer writing-down to his audience. Waid should not have had Sharon talking about "Beavis and Butthead" and saying "duh." Cap should not be saying "whatever."

Some of the facial expressions could be better. Although Garney has done passably well showing Cap's determination (personally I find the chin too big and the frowning mouth almost satirical in its exaggeration), we have not seen much of Cap smiling. Some of the best Cap artists like Byrne and Zeck often had Cap smiling naturally, and in that grin would could get a sense of the goodness of the hero.

Waid has said: "Steve Rogers is a man lost in time. He likes art deco and Benny Goodman. Although it may be an interesting bit to show that, it is not of interest to kids." (Collector's Preview, 1995; p. 5). Roger Stern, however, took the opposite approach, showing Cap's interest in big-band music and musicals and that remains one of the best eras in the title's history. Why not appeal to both the adult & young audience, who certainly wouldn't stop buying the book if a few scenes of Cap's taste in music were shown.

The late Gruenwald claimed in the same article: "In the forties, everyone was patriotic....In the nineties, nobody is except him (Cap)." Obviously, the Forties were intensely & blatantly patriotic because of the War, but to depict a 1990s where Cap is the only patriot doesn't reflect reality. Cap's comic should be a comic that makes one proud to be an American, not a depressing experience. Cap should appeal to the optimism of youth and the optimism America represents, not the cynicism prevalent in the media. Cap's creative team should look at the national pride one sees in Comely Comix's Captain Canuck series, and bring a similar pride in country to Captain America. Not an exaggerated pride which looks like satire. Look at how Cap reacted to the Busby Berkeley-type spectacle in Bi-Centennial Battles (1976), and how he preferred the sound of an old man playing the fiddle in the country to such garish exaggeration.

Obviously when Waid and Garney return to Cap, there will be a lot of excitement, and people will cut them a lot of slack, just glad to have the real Cap back. But I still haven't decided whether I will follow the title when it returns or not. I still haven't been sold on Waid & Garney entirely.

Rob

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Re: Advice for Waid/Garney (634)

Posted by Bubba2 on June 09, 1997 at 13:24:27 PDT
in reply to Advice for Waid/Garney (633), posted by Rob on June 09, 1997 at 12:40:26 PDT

Rob said:

[stuff snipped]

> I liked some of the dialogue, but some of it got on my nerves. I still don't understand why Sharon calls Cap "Rogers" instead of "Steve." It doesn't ring true. I see from the letters-pages that some readers had a problem with Sharon's hair (I simply didn't like the Pam Anderson look) and I'd agree that a short cut would be more appropriate for her present edgy style. Not that I liked that change; I preferred the old Sharon. I have a problem whenever people don't show Cap the respect he deserves. And Sharon should already be well-aware that Cap deserves respect in the fighting dept.

> Some of the dialogue doesn't ring true...sounds like a writer writing-down to his audience. Waid should not have had Sharon talking about "Beavis and Butthead" and saying "duh." Cap should not be saying "whatever."

> Some of the facial expressions could be better. Although Garney has done passably well showing Cap's determination (personally I find the chin too big and the frowning mouth almost satirical in its exaggeration), we have not seen much of Cap smiling. Some of the best Cap artists like Byrne and Zeck often had Cap smiling naturally, and in that grin would could get a sense of the goodness of the hero.

[more stuff snipped]

I just wanted to say thanks for a reasoned critique of Waid/Garney. Although I disagree with some of the points made, it is really refreshing to hear someone post their grievances in a logical and sane manner. I am one of those who look forward to Waid/Garney being back on Cap, and I'll be glad when the Imagization of Cap is over. I just wanted to say to Rob, "Thanks for expressing your reasons in a manner inviting dialogue, rather than by flaming and flame bait!" I realize that nothing I say could make you enjoy the Waid/Garney series more than you did, but I am glad that you might give them a chance when they come back! Oh, and thanks for the walk down memory lane with all the authors' views of Cap, that was interesting!

Happy Birthday,

Bubba2

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"Fighting American"! (635)

Posted by The Plaid Skull on June 09, 1997 at 15:11:33 PDT

Liefield got premission from Kirby's widow and Joe Simon to use the name "Fighting American" in his Agent America series! I got this little tid bit from Jonah Weiland's board and the guy who got there got it at Usenet!


Cya
The Plaid Skull


Whenever there is injustice, tyranny, ruthlessness...the Plaid Skull was there!!!

Host = bak-ca1-02.ix.netcom.com (204.32.156.34)



Re: Cap at Planet Hollywood in Myrtle Beach, SC (636)

Posted by TLesch on June 09, 1997 at 17:01:00 PDT
in reply to Cap at Planet Hollywood in Myrtle Beach, SC (630), posted by Hiroshi on June 09, 1997 at 09:43:04 PDT

> Guys,
> I recently paid a visit to Planet Hollywood in Myrtle Beach, SC and what did I see there?! Captain America! No kidding! Actually it was a dummy (of the manaquin variety, not a brainless model) trussed up in a Captain America uniform. But there was one not so slight problem. He was wearing what looked like white fruit-of-the-loom underwear with red stripes painted on them!! I just about broke out screaming when I saw that! What a travesty! So I am officially boycotting Planet Hollywood until they correct this heinous defamation! Their foods too darn expensive anyway!! And their menu sucks!!
> Hiroshi

Hiroshi, I work at Planet. I'm going to check into this, because it sounds too weird. Since the restaurants are filled with authentic movie memorabilia, that Cap would have to have been used in a movie by someone. It may have been from a parade scene or Halloween scene or some such. It wasn't from that movie of a few years back, was it? You know, the one with that Salinger guy in the rubber Cap suit? The expense, now that is the typical tourist-trap stuff... The good news (or maybe not), the menu is getting a facelift. I still love the crunchy chicken though! E-mail me the next (if ever) time you go to PH, could you? Thanks, bud!

Host = pm11-05.magicnet.net (206.104.204.70)



Re: "Fighting American"! (637)

Posted by Ned Leeds Jr. on June 09, 1997 at 17:10:41 PDT
in reply to "Fighting American"! (635), posted by The Plaid Skull on June 09, 1997 at 15:11:33 PDT

> Liefield got premission from Kirby's widow and Joe Simon to use the name "Fighting American" in his Agent America series! I got this little tid bit from Jonah Weiland's board and the guy who got there got it at Usenet!

>
> Cya
> The Plaid Skull

>
> Whenever there is injustice, tyranny, ruthlessness...the Plaid Skull was there!!!

This proves that neither of the two mentioned above follow comic news and that both were in need of money.

Host = 155.42.32.16 (155.42.32.16)



Re: "Fighting American"! (638)

Posted by TLesch on June 09, 1997 at 17:14:08 PDT
in reply to "Fighting American"! (635), posted by The Plaid Skull on June 09, 1997 at 15:11:33 PDT

> Liefield got premission from Kirby's widow and Joe Simon to use the name "Fighting American" in his Agent America series! I got this little tid bit from Jonah Weiland's board and the guy who got there got it at Usenet!

>
> Cya
> The Plaid Skull

>
> Whenever there is injustice, tyranny, ruthlessness...the Plaid Skull was there!!!

How'd he pull that one off? It's bad news, since it could prop up the series. This comic should die a quick death, not get a booster shot! I think it trivializes the work of Simon & Kirby! New (and younger) fans will get the idea (if they haven't already) that these guys were hacks! Agent America slings mud onto the piece of comic history that is Captain America. People will get the impression that Agent America is somehow "the flavor" of Cap and/or Fighting American. FA was great satire! However, it takes good writing to make satire, and I'm sorry, but you can't get through a book by Rob's people without some glaring grammatical error of some sort(and tell your letterers and "editors" to learn how to spell). English Lit is really not one of the classes you should cut....anyway, I don't think that studio has the intelligence to rip-off Cap, redux FA AND make it satirical (GOOD LUCK)!
That's just my opinion.

Host = pm11-05.magicnet.net (206.104.204.70)



Re: Cap at Planet Hollywood in Myrtle Beach, SC (639)

Posted by Ned Leeds Jr. on June 09, 1997 at 17:42:16 PDT
in reply to Re: Cap at Planet Hollywood in Myrtle Beach, SC (636), posted by TLesch on June 09, 1997 at 17:01:00 PDT

> > Guys,
> > I recently paid a visit to Planet Hollywood in Myrtle Beach, SC and what did I see there?! Captain America! No kidding! Actually it was a dummy (of the manaquin variety, not a brainless model) trussed up in a Captain America uniform. But there was one not so slight problem. He was wearing what looked like white fruit-of-the-loom underwear with red stripes painted on them!! I just about broke out screaming when I saw that! What a travesty! So I am officially boycotting Planet Hollywood until they correct this heinous defamation! Their foods too darn expensive anyway!! And their menu sucks!!
> > Hiroshi

> Hiroshi, I work at Planet. I'm going to check into this, because it sounds too weird. Since the restaurants are filled with authentic movie memorabilia, that Cap would have to have been used in a movie by someone. It may have been from a parade scene or Halloween scene or some such. It wasn't from that movie of a few years back, was it? You know, the one with that Salinger guy in the rubber Cap suit? The expense, now that is the typical tourist-trap stuff... The good news (or maybe not), the menu is getting a facelift. I still love the crunchy chicken though! E-mail me the next (if ever) time you go to PH, could you? Thanks, bud!

Yep....I saw a bad copy of that flick on video. There was also a bad Cap series that ran for about one season on tv back in the 70's.

Host = 155.42.32.16 (155.42.32.16)



Re: Cap at Planet Hollywood in Myrtle Beach, SC (640)

Posted by The Plaid Skull on June 09, 1997 at 19:25:15 PDT
in reply to Re: Cap at Planet Hollywood in Myrtle Beach, SC (639), posted by Ned Leeds Jr. on June 09, 1997 at 17:42:16 PDT

> > > Guys,
> > > I recently paid a visit to Planet Hollywood in Myrtle Beach, SC and what did I see there?! Captain America! No kidding! Actually it was a dummy (of the manaquin variety, not a brainless model) trussed up in a Captain America uniform. But there was one not so slight problem. He was wearing what looked like white fruit-of-the-loom underwear with red stripes painted on them!! I just about broke out screaming when I saw that! What a travesty! So I am officially boycotting Planet Hollywood until they correct this heinous defamation! Their foods too darn expensive anyway!! And their menu sucks!!
> > > Hiroshi

> > Hiroshi, I work at Planet. I'm going to check into this, because it sounds too weird. Since the restaurants are filled with authentic movie memorabilia, that Cap would have to have been used in a movie by someone. It may have been from a parade scene or Halloween scene or some such. It wasn't from that movie of a few years back, was it? You know, the one with that Salinger guy in the rubber Cap suit? The expense, now that is the typical tourist-trap stuff... The good news (or maybe not), the menu is getting a facelift. I still love the crunchy chicken though! E-mail me the next (if ever) time you go to PH, could you? Thanks, bud!

> Yep....I saw a bad copy of that flick on video. There was also a bad Cap series that ran for about one season on tv back in the 70's.


Hahah!! I saw both of those too! The seventies show had Cap with a transparent plastic shield with red white and blue stripes painted on it!! I was laughing my ace off!!! And I also the horrible movie with the Italian Red Skull and at the end we saw a dummy crash into the rocks below! It was so*sniff*sad!!


Cya
The Plaid Skull


Whenever there is injustice, tyranny, ruthlessness...the Plaid Skull was there!!!

Host = bak-ca1-09.ix.netcom.com (204.32.156.41)



Buying Cap Cheaply (The Sequel) (641)

Posted by Batroc on June 09, 1997 at 19:36:15 PDT

>>Those of you who are Cap neophytes, please heed the advice given
earlier by Rob. Most of the Cap stories are found in the 50 cents
or quarter boxes at shows and Conventions. At the Nashville
convention I attended there were a shi'ite load of Caps (Course I
got 'em all already) in the bargain box.
>>I completed a run from #271 to #400 and didn't pay more than cover
except for ish #350 and #332. Don't spend alot of money on the
Waid's, Kirby, Byrne, works. Only true Cap fans holds the series
and character in high esteem.
>>>Interestingly enough, there were alot of TOS being sold at
cut rates (Course I got 'em all already) and I couldn't really
figure out why. I do recommend TOS as a good investment. This
series will stand the test of time.
>>>Course the real reason to buy comics if to enjoy comics. If you
are into specultation, get into stocks or real estate.
Just my two cents, BATROC THE LEAPER.

Host = ten1.ten.k12.tn.us (206.23.236.1)



Re: Cap at Planet Hollywood in Myrtle Beach, SC (642)

Posted by Batroc on June 09, 1997 at 19:49:14 PDT
in reply to Re: Cap at Planet Hollywood in Myrtle Beach, SC (640), posted by The Plaid Skull on June 09, 1997 at 19:25:15 PDT

> > > > Guys,
> > > > I recently paid a visit to Planet Hollywood in Myrtle Beach, SC and what did I see there?! Captain America! No kidding! Actually it was a dummy (of the manaquin variety, not a brainless model) trussed up in a Captain America uniform. But there was one not so slight problem. He was wearing what looked like white fruit-of-the-loom underwear with red stripes painted on them!! I just about broke out screaming when I saw that! What a travesty! So I am officially boycotting Planet Hollywood until they correct this heinous defamation! Their foods too darn expensive anyway!! And their menu sucks!!
> > > > Hiroshi
> > > Hiroshi, I work at Planet. I'm going to check into this, because it sounds too weird. Since the restaurants are filled with authentic movie memorabilia, that Cap would have to have been used in a movie by someone. It may have been from a parade scene or Halloween scene or some such. It wasn't from that movie of a few years back, was it? You know, the one with that Salinger guy in the rubber Cap suit? The expense, now that is the typical tourist-trap stuff... The good news (or maybe not), the menu is getting a facelift. I still love the crunchy chicken though! E-mail me the next (if ever) time you go to PH, could you? Thanks, bud!
> > Yep....I saw a bad copy of that flick on video. There was also a bad Cap series that ran for about one season on tv back in the 70's.

> Hahah!! I saw both of those too! The seventies show had Cap with a transparent plastic shield with red white and blue stripes painted on it!! I was laughing my ace off!!! And I also the horrible movie with the Italian Red Skull and at the end we saw a dummy crash into the rocks below! It was so*sniff*sad!!

> Cya
> The Plaid Skull

> Whenever there is injustice, tyranny, ruthlessness...the Plaid Skull was there!!!
>>>That latest Cap movie. I saw poster for it and waited with
breathless anticipation for its release and missed it. It was out
maybe 3 hours before it bombed. Then I rented it and watched with
a fellow Cap fan fortified with appropriate beverage. IT STILL SUCKED!
Did you ever see the 1940's serial?? It was so bad it was funny.
Cap has a pistol and has to use it every now and then. He also
escapes from an impossible tragedy at the end of each episode.
However, George Maxon does not appear. BATROC THE LEAPER>>>>>>>

Host = ten1.ten.k12.tn.us (206.23.236.1)



Re: Cap at Planet Hollywood in Myrtle Beach, SC (643)

Posted by The Plaid Skull on June 09, 1997 at 20:16:43 PDT
in reply to Re: Cap at Planet Hollywood in Myrtle Beach, SC (642), posted by Batroc on June 09, 1997 at 19:49:14 PDT

> > > > > Guys,
> > > > > I recently paid a visit to Planet Hollywood in Myrtle Beach, SC and what did I see there?! Captain America! No kidding! Actually it was a dummy (of the manaquin variety, not a brainless model) trussed up in a Captain America uniform. But there was one not so slight problem. He was wearing what looked like white fruit-of-the-loom underwear with red stripes painted on them!! I just about broke out screaming when I saw that! What a travesty! So I am officially boycotting Planet Hollywood until they correct this heinous defamation! Their foods too darn expensive anyway!! And their menu sucks!!
> > > > > Hiroshi
> > > > Hiroshi, I work at Planet. I'm going to check into this, because it sounds too weird. Since the restaurants are filled with authentic movie memorabilia, that Cap would have to have been used in a movie by someone. It may have been from a parade scene or Halloween scene or some such. It wasn't from that movie of a few years back, was it? You know, the one with that Salinger guy in the rubber Cap suit? The expense, now that is the typical tourist-trap stuff... The good news (or maybe not), the menu is getting a facelift. I still love the crunchy chicken though! E-mail me the next (if ever) time you go to PH, could you? Thanks, bud!
> > > Yep....I saw a bad copy of that flick on video. There was also a bad Cap series that ran for about one season on tv back in the 70's.
>
> > Hahah!! I saw both of those too! The seventies show had Cap with a transparent plastic shield with red white and blue stripes painted on it!! I was laughing my ace off!!! And I also the horrible movie with the Italian Red Skull and at the end we saw a dummy crash into the rocks below! It was so*sniff*sad!!
>
> > Cya
> > The Plaid Skull
>
> > Whenever there is injustice, tyranny, ruthlessness...the Plaid Skull was there!!!
> >>>That latest Cap movie. I saw poster for it and waited with
> breathless anticipation for its release and missed it. It was out
> maybe 3 hours before it bombed. Then I rented it and watched with
> a fellow Cap fan fortified with appropriate beverage. IT STILL SUCKED!
> Did you ever see the 1940's serial?? It was so bad it was funny.
> Cap has a pistol and has to use it every now and then. He also
> escapes from an impossible tragedy at the end of each episode.
> However, George Maxon does not appear. BATROC THE LEAPER>>>>>>>


Did it mention Johann Shmidt?


Cya
The Plaid Skull

Whenever there is injustice, tyranny, ruthlessness...the Plaid Skull was there!!!

Host = bak-ca1-09.ix.netcom.com (204.32.156.41)



Re: Cap at Planet Hollywood in Myrtle Beach, SC (644)

Posted by Batroc on June 09, 1997 at 20:36:33 PDT
in reply to Re: Cap at Planet Hollywood in Myrtle Beach, SC (643), posted by The Plaid Skull on June 09, 1997 at 20:16:43 PDT


> > > > > > Guys,
> > > > > > I recently paid a visit to Planet Hollywood in Myrtle Beach, SC and what did I see there?! Captain America! No kidding! Actually it was a dummy (of the manaquin variety, not a brainless model) trussed up in a Captain America uniform. But there was one not so slight problem. He was wearing what looked like white fruit-of-the-loom underwear with red stripes painted on them!! I just about broke out screaming when I saw that! What a travesty! So I am officially boycotting Planet Hollywood until they correct this heinous defamation! Their foods too darn expensive anyway!! And their menu sucks!!
> > > > > > Hiroshi
> > > > > Hiroshi, I work at Planet. I'm going to check into this, because it sounds too weird. Since the restaurants are filled with authentic movie memorabilia, that Cap would have to have been used in a movie by someone. It may have been from a parade scene or Halloween scene or some such. It wasn't from that movie of a few years back, was it? You know, the one with that Salinger guy in the rubber Cap suit? The expense, now that is the typical tourist-trap stuff... The good news (or maybe not), the menu is getting a facelift. I still love the crunchy chicken though! E-mail me the next (if ever) time you go to PH, could you? Thanks, bud!
> > > > Yep....I saw a bad copy of that flick on video. There was also a bad Cap series that ran for about one season on tv back in the 70's.
> >
> > > Hahah!! I saw both of those too! The seventies show had Cap with a transparent plastic shield with red white and blue stripes painted on it!! I was laughing my ace off!!! And I also the horrible movie with the Italian Red Skull and at the end we saw a dummy crash into the rocks below! It was so*sniff*sad!!
> >
> > > Cya
> > > The Plaid Skull
> >
> > > Whenever there is injustice, tyranny, ruthlessness...the Plaid Skull was there!!!
> > >>>That latest Cap movie. I saw poster for it and waited with
> > breathless anticipation for its release and missed it. It was out
> > maybe 3 hours before it bombed. Then I rented it and watched with
> > a fellow Cap fan fortified with appropriate beverage. IT STILL SUCKED!
> > Did you ever see the 1940's serial?? It was so bad it was funny.
> > Cap has a pistol and has to use it every now and then. He also
> > escapes from an impossible tragedy at the end of each episode.
> > However, George Maxon does not appear. BATROC THE LEAPER>>>>>>>

>
> Did it mention Johann Shmidt?

>
> Cya
> The Plaid Skull

> Whenever there is injustice, tyranny, ruthlessness...the Plaid Skull was there!!!

^^^Skull you ruthless...you and Medinnus are the ones who
implied that you would get me info on George Maxon. What
became of (dare I say it) Red Skull I??? Did he perish in
Captain America #1 (1941) or did Johann polish him off to
assume the mantle, or does AIM have him on ice. It is driving
me quite mad, MAD I TELL YOU!! I can't stand not knowing
all of the silly Cap trivia.
P.S. Did I tell you Sam Wilson's cat was named Figaro??
The Leaper....

Host = pmc102.aeneas.net (207.65.53.131)



Cap Triv Time Again... You have been warned!!! (645)

Posted by Batroc on June 09, 1997 at 20:48:30 PDT

O.K., here is one for my new bestest buddies Rob and Roscoe
(or anyone else who wants to play along)..
Steve Rogers has been known to have a smoke every now and
then ( a pipe actually). Alot of his golden age appearances have
him enjoying a few puffs. (long before the first surgeon generals
warning). WHEN WAS THE LAST OCCURANCE OF CAP/
STEVE ROGERS LIGHTING UP??
**** If you don't want to play, just move along and
save your "you suck" messages for later for that is the way
of honor the way of BATROC the Leaper.

Host = pmc102.aeneas.net (207.65.53.131)



Re: Cap Triv Time Again... You have been warned!!! (646)

Posted by Rob on June 09, 1997 at 21:44:32 PDT
in reply to Cap Triv Time Again... You have been warned!!! (645), posted by Batroc on June 09, 1997 at 20:48:30 PDT


> O.K., here is one for my new bestest buddies Rob and Roscoe
> (or anyone else who wants to play along)..
> Steve Rogers has been known to have a smoke every now and
> then ( a pipe actually). Alot of his golden age appearances have
> him enjoying a few puffs. (long before the first surgeon generals
> warning). WHEN WAS THE LAST OCCURANCE OF CAP/
> STEVE ROGERS LIGHTING UP??
> **** If you don't want to play, just move along and
> save your "you suck" messages for later for that is the way
> of honor the way of BATROC the Leaper.

Last one i remember was #110...opening scene. And I seem to remember some letters complaining about it, so they dropped it. Am i right?

Rob

Host = i275.driveninc.com (207.142.98.75)



Re: Buying Cap issues cheaply I have one too. (647)

Posted by Hal/Wally in 2000 on June 09, 1997 at 22:02:53 PDT
in reply to Buying Cap issues cheaply (631), posted by Rob on June 09, 1997 at 12:07:31 PDT

>
> > Ok first of any Garney cover was 1000 times better than any of the Robsuck covers! As for the above question yes there is a TB but I do not rember the titile. As for you paying 25 cents for some Waid Caps. can you please get me some more, I have never seen them priced that low! Usually 450 is six bucks.

> > Hal/Wally in 2000

>
> Whoa...I would never pay six bucks for #450. In fact, I've rarely paid over 5 bucks for a comic. I had a big long article over on the DC & Marvel boards here and I am going to be re-posting it on the Miscellaneous board at the Jonah Weiland site about buying comics cheap. I got #448-453 for 25 cents each at a convention a few weeks ago. Recently a store in my area began selling a huge amount of random back-issues of various comics for ten cents each. The problem is, one has to dig thru all those boxes to find the good stuff, and most people don't bother. Apparently not every area has a small convention every month or two like where I live. My advice is to check out to see if there are conventions in your area & check out the cheap-boxes at local shops. Last year, I only had three issues of Cap between #350 to #454. Since February of this year, I went looking for Caps at local conventions and now I only need 26 issues to have every issue from #350 to #454. All for a quarter each, all acquired at conventions.

> Rob


Well since I am going to the largest convention on the east coast Friday, Saturday, and Sunday maybe I will find some. And besides I get to meet the gods themselves MARK WAID AND RON GARNEY.

Host = pm-jax3-125.coastalnet.com (205.245.112.125)



Re: Cap at Planet Hollywood in Myrtle Beach, SC (648)

Posted by The Plaid Skull on June 09, 1997 at 22:05:13 PDT
in reply to Re: Cap at Planet Hollywood in Myrtle Beach, SC (644), posted by Batroc on June 09, 1997 at 20:36:33 PDT

>
> > > > > > > Guys,
> > > > > > > I recently paid a visit to Planet Hollywood in Myrtle Beach, SC and what did I see there?! Captain America! No kidding! Actually it was a dummy (of the manaquin variety, not a brainless model) trussed up in a Captain America uniform. But there was one not so slight problem. He was wearing what looked like white fruit-of-the-loom underwear with red stripes painted on them!! I just about broke out screaming when I saw that! What a travesty! So I am officially boycotting Planet Hollywood until they correct this heinous defamation! Their foods too darn expensive anyway!! And their menu sucks!!
> > > > > > > Hiroshi
> > > > > > Hiroshi, I work at Planet. I'm going to check into this, because it sounds too weird. Since the restaurants are filled with authentic movie memorabilia, that Cap would have to have been used in a movie by someone. It may have been from a parade scene or Halloween scene or some such. It wasn't from that movie of a few years back, was it? You know, the one with that Salinger guy in the rubber Cap suit? The expense, now that is the typical tourist-trap stuff... The good news (or maybe not), the menu is getting a facelift. I still love the crunchy chicken though! E-mail me the next (if ever) time you go to PH, could you? Thanks, bud!
> > > > > Yep....I saw a bad copy of that flick on video. There was also a bad Cap series that ran for about one season on tv back in the 70's.
> > >
> > > > Hahah!! I saw both of those too! The seventies show had Cap with a transparent plastic shield with red white and blue stripes painted on it!! I was laughing my ace off!!! And I also the horrible movie with the Italian Red Skull and at the end we saw a dummy crash into the rocks below! It was so*sniff*sad!!
> > >
> > > > Cya
> > > > The Plaid Skull
> > >
> > > > Whenever there is injustice, tyranny, ruthlessness...the Plaid Skull was there!!!
> > > >>>That latest Cap movie. I saw poster for it and waited with
> > > breathless anticipation for its release and missed it. It was out
> > > maybe 3 hours before it bombed. Then I rented it and watched with
> > > a fellow Cap fan fortified with appropriate beverage. IT STILL SUCKED!
> > > Did you ever see the 1940's serial?? It was so bad it was funny.
> > > Cap has a pistol and has to use it every now and then. He also
> > > escapes from an impossible tragedy at the end of each episode.
> > > However, George Maxon does not appear. BATROC THE LEAPER>>>>>>>

> >
> > Did it mention Johann Shmidt?

> >
> > Cya
> > The Plaid Skull

> > Whenever there is injustice, tyranny, ruthlessness...the Plaid Skull was there!!!

> ^^^Skull you ruthless...you and Medinnus are the ones who
> implied that you would get me info on George Maxon. What
> became of (dare I say it) Red Skull I??? Did he perish in
> Captain America #1 (1941) or did Johann polish him off to
> assume the mantle, or does AIM have him on ice. It is driving
> me quite mad, MAD I TELL YOU!! I can't stand not knowing
> all of the silly Cap trivia.
> P.S. Did I tell you Sam Wilson's cat was named Figaro??
> The Leaper....

Here ya go here is the adress to the villains of Marvel Comics if you haven't been there yet! In the Red Skull's bio it mentions that the Skull was originally named Maxon and so on! Here it is all you gotta do is go to the "Terrorism Inc." section and you'll find bios for Modok, AIM, Strucker, the Red Skull, etc.! Here goes:


http://www.sigma.net/burch/index.html

You'll also see the "Whenever there is injustice,etc" quote from the old Cap cartoon! That cartoon was actually based on the comics!! Stories and all! If only Spidey and X-Men did that....


Cya
The Plaid Skull


Whenever there is injustice, tyranny, ruthlessness...the Plaid Skull was there!!!

Host = bak-ca1-03.ix.netcom.com (204.32.156.35)



Me vs. Captain America (649)

Posted by Quicksilver on June 09, 1997 at 22:32:46 PDT

Ah, this one admittingly goes to Cap . Although I can defeat
basically anyone in my universe, I don't stand a chance to
the American .

The Fast and Mighty,

Quicksilver

Host = bristlecone.frazmtn.com (204.212.38.12)



Re: Cap Triv Time Again... You have been warned!!! (650)

Posted by The Plaid Skull on June 09, 1997 at 22:59:17 PDT
in reply to Re: Cap Triv Time Again... You have been warned!!! (646), posted by Rob on June 09, 1997 at 21:44:32 PDT

>
> > O.K., here is one for my new bestest buddies Rob and Roscoe
> > (or anyone else who wants to play along)..
> > Steve Rogers has been known to have a smoke every now and
> > then ( a pipe actually). Alot of his golden age appearances have
> > him enjoying a few puffs. (long before the first surgeon generals
> > warning). WHEN WAS THE LAST OCCURANCE OF CAP/
> > STEVE ROGERS LIGHTING UP??
> > **** If you don't want to play, just move along and
> > save your "you suck" messages for later for that is the way
> > of honor the way of BATROC the Leaper.

> Last one i remember was #110...opening scene. And I seem to remember some letters complaining about it, so they dropped it. Am i right?

> Rob

Yeck!! How can Cap be a role model to the little comic kids? I bet you Franklin Richards is going to start smoking because his father and his "Unca' Ben" smokes!! For that is the way of injustice, tyranny, ruthlessness that is the way of......

The Plaid Skull


I've decided to try something new! Ya like?

Host = bak-ca1-03.ix.netcom.com (204.32.156.35)



Re: Cap Triv Time Again... You have been warned!!! (651)

Posted by Ned Leeds Jr. on June 10, 1997 at 08:43:54 PDT
in reply to Re: Cap Triv Time Again... You have been warned!!! (650), posted by The Plaid Skull on June 09, 1997 at 22:59:17 PDT

> >
> > > O.K., here is one for my new bestest buddies Rob and Roscoe
> > > (or anyone else who wants to play along)..
> > > Steve Rogers has been known to have a smoke every now and
> > > then ( a pipe actually). Alot of his golden age appearances have
> > > him enjoying a few puffs. (long before the first surgeon generals
> > > warning). WHEN WAS THE LAST OCCURANCE OF CAP/
> > > STEVE ROGERS LIGHTING UP??
> > > **** If you don't want to play, just move along and
> > > save your "you suck" messages for later for that is the way
> > > of honor the way of BATROC the Leaper.

> > Last one i remember was #110...opening scene. And I seem to remember some letters complaining about it, so they dropped it. Am i right?

> > Rob

> Yeck!! How can Cap be a role model to the little comic kids? I bet you Franklin Richards is going to start smoking because his father and his "Unca' Ben" smokes!! For that is the way of injustice, tyranny, ruthlessness that is the way of......


> The Plaid Skull

>
> I've decided to try something new! Ya like?

Awwwww....in yer ear, ya Batroc wannabe!!!! Hey, I sounded like a native Yancy Streeter!!!!!


Wherever The is confussion, delierium, and chaos....Ned Leeds Jr. was there.........

Host = 155.42.32.44 (155.42.32.44)



Re: Advice for Waid/Garney (652)

Posted by Xer0 on June 10, 1997 at 08:51:44 PDT
in reply to Advice for Waid/Garney (633), posted by Rob on June 09, 1997 at 12:40:26 PDT

> Well, I just looked through #448-453 finally...skimming in some places, reading thoroughly in other places (basically I liked the stuff where it involved the people talking -- like Cap talking to the Prez -- and not so much the fight-scene stuff). And so, I have to say that I enjoyed some bits (Machinesmith in the Prez's "football," for example) and not so much other bits.

> I liked some of the dialogue, but some of it got on my nerves. I still don't understand why Sharon calls Cap "Rogers" instead of "Steve." It doesn't ring true. I see from the letters-pages that some readers had a problem with Sharon's hair (I simply didn't like the Pam Anderson look) and I'd agree that a short cut would be more appropriate for her present edgy style. Not that I liked that change; I preferred the old Sharon. I have a problem whenever people don't show Cap the respect he deserves. And Sharon should already be well-aware that Cap deserves respect in the fighting dept.

> Some of the dialogue doesn't ring true...sounds like a writer writing-down to his audience. Waid should not have had Sharon talking about "Beavis and Butthead" and saying "duh." Cap should not be saying "whatever."

> Some of the facial expressions could be better. Although Garney has done passably well showing Cap's determination (personally I find the chin too big and the frowning mouth almost satirical in its exaggeration), we have not seen much of Cap smiling. Some of the best Cap artists like Byrne and Zeck often had Cap smiling naturally, and in that grin would could get a sense of the goodness of the hero.

> Waid has said: "Steve Rogers is a man lost in time. He likes art deco and Benny Goodman. Although it may be an interesting bit to show that, it is not of interest to kids." (Collector's Preview, 1995; p. 5). Roger Stern, however, took the opposite approach, showing Cap's interest in big-band music and musicals and that remains one of the best eras in the title's history. Why not appeal to both the adult & young audience, who certainly wouldn't stop buying the book if a few scenes of Cap's taste in music were shown.

> The late Gruenwald claimed in the same article: "In the forties, everyone was patriotic....In the nineties, nobody is except him (Cap)." Obviously, the Forties were intensely & blatantly patriotic because of the War, but to depict a 1990s where Cap is the only patriot doesn't reflect reality. Cap's comic should be a comic that makes one proud to be an American, not a depressing experience. Cap should appeal to the optimism of youth and the optimism America represents, not the cynicism prevalent in the media. Cap's creative team should look at the national pride one sees in Comely Comix's Captain Canuck series, and bring a similar pride in country to Captain America. Not an exaggerated pride which looks like satire. Look at how Cap reacted to the Busby Berkeley-type spectacle in Bi-Centennial Battles (1976), and how he preferred the sound of an old man playing the fiddle in the country to such garish exaggeration.

But this IS true. Since the eighties there has been and increasing mistrust of the American goverenment by the common man. And rightly so. There is so much greed and graft in the US government. We mistrust our polititions and all their under-the-covers dealings.

Today's youth just don't have the same pride, respect, and admiration for our country that we did in '76. I work with the youth. They are discouraged. If Cap was a real person and was into Ma, Baseball, apple pie, and the Flag he would be a laughing stock. Yet, we need heroes like Cap and Superguy. We need a healthy dose of anachronism in the skeptical 90's.

Xero

Host = 208.13.191.137 (208.13.191.137)



Re: Cap at Planet Hollywood in Myrtle Beach, SC (653)

Posted by Hiroshi on June 10, 1997 at 09:39:40 PDT
in reply to Re: Cap at Planet Hollywood in Myrtle Beach, SC (636), posted by TLesch on June 09, 1997 at 17:01:00 PDT

> Hiroshi, I work at Planet. I'm going to check into this, because it sounds too weird. Since the restaurants are filled with authentic movie memorabilia, that Cap would have to have been used in a movie by someone. It may have been from a parade scene or Halloween scene or some such. It wasn't from that movie of a few years back, was it? You know, the one with that Salinger guy in the rubber Cap suit? The expense, now that is the typical tourist-trap stuff... The good news (or maybe not), the menu is getting a facelift. I still love the crunchy chicken though! E-mail me the next (if ever) time you go to PH, could you? Thanks, bud!

TLesch, from what I remember, the placard placed the costume as being from one of the television movies starring Reb Brown as Cap, not the Salinger fiasco. Well, the Reb Brown Cap wasn't any better, but anyway, it looks as if they misplaced or didn't get caps shorts so someone thought to put a pair of white scivvies on him and paint the red stripes to matchup with the stripes on the abdominal section of the shirt. It just looks plain tacky! Regarding the menu, the food was good (I had the Cajun chicken sandwich), don't get me wrong, and the service was really good, but the menu didn't thrill me a bit. I'm glad to hear it's getting a facelift. I'll be sure to e-mail you next time I make a trip down. Thanks, dude!

Host = 199.222.162.39 (199.222.162.39)



Re: Advice for Waid/Garney (654)

Posted by Rob on June 10, 1997 at 10:07:46 PDT
in reply to Re: Advice for Waid/Garney (652), posted by Xer0 on June 10, 1997 at 08:51:44 PDT

> > The late Gruenwald claimed in the same article: "In the forties, everyone was patriotic....In the nineties, nobody is except him (Cap)." Obviously, the Forties were intensely & blatantly patriotic because of the War, but to depict a 1990s where Cap is the only patriot doesn't reflect reality. Cap's comic should be a comic that makes one proud to be an American, not a depressing experience. Cap should appeal to the optimism of youth and the optimism America represents, not the cynicism prevalent in the media. Cap's creative team should look at the national pride one sees in Comely Comix's Captain Canuck series, and bring a similar pride in country to Captain America. Not an exaggerated pride which looks like satire. Look at how Cap reacted to the Busby Berkeley-type spectacle in Bi-Centennial Battles (1976), and how he preferred the sound of an old man playing the fiddle in the country to such garish exaggeration.

> But this IS true. Since the eighties there has been and increasing mistrust of the American goverenment by the common man. And rightly so. There is so much greed and graft in the US government. We mistrust our polititions and all their under-the-covers dealings.

> Today's youth just don't have the same pride, respect, and admiration for our country that we did in '76. I work with the youth. They are discouraged. If Cap was a real person and was into Ma, Baseball, apple pie, and the Flag he would be a laughing stock. Yet, we need heroes like Cap and Superguy. We need a healthy dose of anachronism in the skeptical 90's.

> Xero


But I thought the whole lesson of the original mid-1970s Nomad story-arc was that Cap would never again confuse the bad actions of a member of the American government with those of the American Dream. That's what he is patriotic about, the Dream.

Incidentally, last night I went back and read the little "essays" that Roger Stern contributed to the letters-pages just prior and during his brief time as writer on the series, and I can only hope Waid has given as much thought to the character of Cap, and the direction of the comic, as Stern obviously had.

Rob


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Re: At last!! I am omnipotent!!!! (655)

Posted by David Medinnus on June 10, 1997 at 12:38:39 PDT
in reply to Re: At last!! I am omnipotent!!!! (609), posted by The Plaid Skull on June 06, 1997 at 20:14:41 PDT


> Uhh...the "N" part? C'mon lighten up!! It's all just good clean fun! Alvaro lets me do it!! I know when you get a good number you have a certain urge to post it don't you? To notify the world! No? Then I guess I'm just a rebel for whenever there is injustice, tyranny, ruthlessness...the Plaid Skull was there!!

I let you do it, too...it just annoys the *&#%$^ out of me (and NO, that's not my password...).

-DM

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What was "The Great Gold Steal"? (656)

Posted by Rob on June 10, 1997 at 12:48:03 PDT

I seem to recall some letters in old issues of Cap (around 1970) mentioning a book written by Ted White titled "The Great Gold Steal" which had Cap's origin in it. So, my question is...Was this a book on comics or what? I've never heard of it other than those cryptic references to it in those old Cap letters-pages...!

Rob

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Re: Avengers Poll (657)

Posted by Dave Medinnus on June 10, 1997 at 15:42:26 PDT
in reply to Avengers Poll (580), posted by Dave Medinnus on June 03, 1997 at 15:55:42 PDT

> Hiya.

> Please come and take a poll on who should join Cap in the post-HR Avengers team.

We've broken the 100-person mark on this (even after disqualifying the anonymous and duplicate entries - one jerk entered 47 times...)

-DM

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Re: Cap at Planet Hollywood in Myrtle Beach, SC (658)

Posted by TLesch on June 10, 1997 at 17:28:46 PDT
in reply to Re: Cap at Planet Hollywood in Myrtle Beach, SC (653), posted by Hiroshi on June 10, 1997 at 09:39:40 PDT

> > Hiroshi, I work at Planet. I'm going to check into this, because it sounds too weird. Since the restaurants are filled with authentic movie memorabilia, that Cap would have to have been used in a movie by someone. It may have been from a parade scene or Halloween scene or some such. It wasn't from that movie of a few years back, was it? You know, the one with that Salinger guy in the rubber Cap suit? The expense, now that is the typical tourist-trap stuff... The good news (or maybe not), the menu is getting a facelift. I still love the crunchy chicken though! E-mail me the next (if ever) time you go to PH, could you? Thanks, bud!

> TLesch, from what I remember, the placard placed the costume as being from one of the television movies starring Reb Brown as Cap, not the Salinger fiasco. Well, the Reb Brown Cap wasn't any better, but anyway, it looks as if they misplaced or didn't get caps shorts so someone thought to put a pair of white scivvies on him and paint the red stripes to matchup with the stripes on the abdominal section of the shirt. It just looks plain tacky! Regarding the menu, the food was good (I had the Cajun chicken sandwich), don't get me wrong, and the service was really good, but the menu didn't thrill me a bit. I'm glad to hear it's getting a facelift. I'll be sure to e-mail you next time I make a trip down. Thanks, dude!

-Well, I'm thankful they didn't put a pantsless Cap in the restaurant...anyway, we open our first Marvel Mania restaurant in August, so I would assume that Cap will not be around in that location forever. Just a guess. PH is going to do a Batman & Robin push for the movie, if you are so inclined... Next time, we'll hook you up! You gotta drink more Terminators, I'm tellin' ya! You just let me know!

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Re: Cap Triv Time Again... You have been warned!!! (659)

Posted by TLesch on June 10, 1997 at 17:35:10 PDT
in reply to Re: Cap Triv Time Again... You have been warned!!! (651), posted by Ned Leeds Jr. on June 10, 1997 at 08:43:54 PDT

> > >
> > > > O.K., here is one for my new bestest buddies Rob and Roscoe
> > > > (or anyone else who wants to play along)..
> > > > Steve Rogers has been known to have a smoke every now and
> > > > then ( a pipe actually). Alot of his golden age appearances have
> > > > him enjoying a few puffs. (long before the first surgeon generals
> > > > warning). WHEN WAS THE LAST OCCURANCE OF CAP/
> > > > STEVE ROGERS LIGHTING UP??
> > > > **** If you don't want to play, just move along and
> > > > save your "you suck" messages for later for that is the way
> > > > of honor the way of BATROC the Leaper.

> > > Last one i remember was #110...opening scene. And I seem to remember some letters complaining about it, so they dropped it. Am i right?

> > > Rob

> > Yeck!! How can Cap be a role model to the little comic kids? I bet you Franklin Richards is going to start smoking because his father and his "Unca' Ben" smokes!! For that is the way of injustice, tyranny, ruthlessness that is the way of......

>
> > The Plaid Skull

> >
> > I've decided to try something new! Ya like?

> Awwwww....in yer ear, ya Batroc wannabe!!!! Hey, I sounded like a native Yancy Streeter!!!!!

>
> Wherever The is confussion, delierium, and chaos....Ned Leeds Jr. was there.........

Wait..I remember that smoking story! In it, Tony Stark installed some electromagnets on Cap's tobacco tin, so that no matter where it was, he could make it return to him! Cap removed the magnets because he was spilling Prince Albert all over the floor, which got Jarvis really upset! Yeah, that's it! Remember?

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Rob is the Triv Whiz!!!! (660)

Posted by Batroc on June 10, 1997 at 18:48:21 PDT
in reply to Re: Cap Triv Time Again... You have been warned!!! (659), posted by TLesch on June 10, 1997 at 17:35:10 PDT

> > >
> > > > > O.K., here is one for my new bestest buddies Rob and Roscoe
> > > > > (or anyone else who wants to play along)..
> > > > > Steve Rogers has been known to have a smoke every now and
> > > > > then ( a pipe actually). Alot of his golden age appearances have
> > > > > him enjoying a few puffs. (long before the first surgeon generals
> > > > > warning). WHEN WAS THE LAST OCCURANCE OF CAP/
> > > > > STEVE ROGERS LIGHTING UP??
> > > > > **** If you don't want to play, just move along and
> > > > > save your "you suck" messages for later for that is the way
> > > > > of honor the way of BATROC the Leaper.
> > > > Last one i remember was #110...opening scene. And I seem to remember some letters complaining about it, so they dropped it. Am i right?
> > > > Rob
##### I do believe Rob is correct Cap #110 was the last time I
saw Cap enjoy a good smoke. Since then he has probably been concerned about being
a good role model. He was in a dark alley, by himself, and fires one
up and what happens?? Here comes the Hulk on a rampage!!! Now there
is another testimonial for not smoking...P.S. Thanks for not saying
I sucked this time for THAT is the way of honor, the way of
BATROC THE LEAPER!!!!

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About the Convention (661)

Posted by Rob on June 10, 1997 at 20:08:31 PDT
in reply to Re: Buying Cap issues cheaply I have one too. (647), posted by Hal/Wally in 2000 on June 09, 1997 at 22:02:53 PDT


> Well since I am going to the largest convention on the east coast Friday, Saturday, and Sunday maybe I will find some. And besides I get to meet the gods themselves MARK WAID AND RON GARNEY.

Perhaps you can let us know how the Convention goes...if you do get to see Waid & Garney, or see any inexpensive Caps, etc. Have fun!

Rob

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Thanks Skully, Now Medinnus... (662)

Posted by Batroc on June 10, 1997 at 21:00:20 PDT

Thanks Plaid Skull, I went to Terrorism Inc. and found out that George
Maxon died. I hardly knew him. Maybe he is alive in a pocket universe.
Now Medinnus, (you said you would research this about two weeks ago)
did he die in Captain America #1 (1941) or somewhere before issue #7
(the first appearance of Johann Schmidt). Did he drown like I
speculated earlier? or did his death take place "off Camera"?
I know those Golden Age plots are idiotic at best but there must
be some symmetry to this. It is driving me quite mad, MAD I tell you
I mean if I see Liefield again I may just....steady man, steady,
remember you are a man of honor, remember you are Batroc the Leaper.

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Re: Thanks Skully, Now Medinnus... (663)

Posted by The Plaid Skull on June 10, 1997 at 23:36:13 PDT
in reply to Thanks Skully, Now Medinnus... (662), posted by Batroc on June 10, 1997 at 21:00:20 PDT

> Thanks Plaid Skull, I went to Terrorism Inc. and found out that George
> Maxon died. I hardly knew him. Maybe he is alive in a pocket universe.
> Now Medinnus, (you said you would research this about two weeks ago)
> did he die in Captain America #1 (1941) or somewhere before issue #7
> (the first appearance of Johann Schmidt). Did he drown like I
> speculated earlier? or did his death take place "off Camera"?
> I know those Golden Age plots are idiotic at best but there must
> be some symmetry to this. It is driving me quite mad, MAD I tell you
> I mean if I see Liefield again I may just....steady man, steady,
> remember you are a man of honor, remember you are Batroc the Leaper.

I remember reading about the Red Skull's(Shmidt)origin and it said that he was a bus boy or something and his guest was Hitler and a General! I think I remember Hitler saying that he can teach that bus boy to be a better General than him and Hitler killed him and Shimdt became Hitler's protege!! Maybe the General was Maxon! Or not!

Cya
The Plaid Skull


Whenever there is injustice, tyranny, ruthlessness...the Plaid Skull was there!!!

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Re: What was "The Great Gold Steal"? (664)

Posted by Batroc on June 11, 1997 at 05:05:35 PDT
in reply to What was "The Great Gold Steal"? (656), posted by Rob on June 10, 1997 at 12:48:03 PDT

> I seem to recall some letters in old issues of Cap (around 1970) mentioning a book written by Ted White titled "The Great Gold Steal" which had Cap's origin in it. So, my question is...Was this a book on comics or what? I've never heard of it other than those cryptic references to it in those old Cap letters-pages...!
> Rob
Would it be a collection of golden age comics in book form. I remember several of these that had DC, Marvel/Timely, cartoons etc. This is just a guess. Batroc

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Re: Death to Liefeld! (665)

Posted by Fenris Ulf on June 11, 1997 at 07:05:11 PDT
in reply to Death to Liefeld! (590), posted by Bucky on June 06, 1997 at 10:20:07 PDT

> Ha! That scummy bastard Liefeld is off Cap! That loser not only desecrated Cap's uniform with that stupid winged thing on his head, but the storyline was absolutely pathetic! And now he thinks we're supposed to feel sorry for him and buy his crappy 'Agent America?' Not a chance! Who's with me?
> Bucky


I don't think he should be killed... I think he should be boycotted!

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Re: Hah ! (666)

Posted by Fenris Ulf on June 11, 1997 at 07:12:51 PDT
in reply to Re: Hah ! (537), posted by Ned Leeds Jr. on June 01, 1997 at 13:54:19 PDT

> > Dear Readers,


> > Hah ! I know why there haven't been any messages for a
> > while ! It's the same reason why the Hulk message board
> > sucks :


> > Both Cap and Hulk comics suck, and that's why both
> > have crappy message boards !


> > Admit it : Captain America comics suck . Hulk comics
> > suck . Thor is boring and doesn't even have his own
> > comic yet . And ... Avenger comics suck .


> > That only leaves the Spidey, T- Bolts, and the DCU message
> > boards cool ( Marvel mb is okay ) .


> > Quit ignoring it : the Cap message board SUCKS !


> > When I came here this place was cool . What happened ?


> > jamie


> .....um....you came here.


> Actually Hulk is one of the best comics that Marvel puts out. Hardly anyone will dispute that fact. It is well writen and continually has had great artists on it for over 10 years now.
> Liefeld is off Cap so that alone makes it "suck" less. Robinson has done o.k. with the filler issues and Waid is coming......


> An Ominous Ned


You actually like Liefeld's work? No comment

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Re: character (667)

Posted by Fenris Ulf on June 11, 1997 at 07:19:34 PDT
in reply to character (542), posted by Lucky on June 01, 1997 at 15:48:05 PDT

> I read the recent editorial regarding a upcoming Captain America movie (a la ROBOCOP), and this news, together with the unmitigated deconstruction of CA's character with Leibfeld and even this latest issue ("Where ever they are, they'll be sorry they messed with me (CA)" in the last frame, only furthers my suspicion that CA's basic character is completely lost; or perhaps, rather, prostituted into a muscle-bound thug who can't derive any deeper of a motivation than VENGENCE.


> What's different between that and a bully? Nothing.


> Character sells, and what is more, character is what makes things last (i.e, How old is CA again?)


> Show some gentleness, some restraint, and some death. Heroes must be fighting for something with some significance, philosophical, moral, social -- something outside of themselves. Vengance is a poor substiute. Heroes are detectives, whether OEDIPUS, HAMLET or CA, and they must be after the truth. They must be a source of light, something for us to aspire towards. What is there elevated about "You'll be sorry!" sentiments? More Rob Leibfeld at work here, unfortunately.


> Doesn't anyone remember when the CA series was allegory, like the famous Green Lantern/Green Arrow series? Remember "Number One" (Nixon)? The Committee that worked outside the law (Iran/Contra)? That's the timber of a character that's lasted so long.


> Read your history new CA people. Some art provides obligation to what has come before as well as opportunity for new stuff -- not just a playground for the latest autuer who wants to act as though nothing has come before or since HIS towering talent (alleged). Like a vengance plot line: How boring.


> Let's have depth. I've always thought that CA and Falc's relationship was greatly unexplored for all the action they faced together. It's important for a character like CA/Steve to have someone with some history partnered with him -- someone he can let down with maybe now more than when they were together before. Somebody he can turn to when he's tired of holding up his chin, and just have a comrade who knows and things what he does before he does. I'm thinking of nice moments in the Avengers with Namor, or the original Avenger members.


> Anyway, this is long. Sorry. Just upset. Thanks for this page.


You're right; and isn't Rob Liefeld artwork just dismal as well?

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Re: character (668)

Posted by Fenris Ulf on June 11, 1997 at 07:26:33 PDT
in reply to character (542), posted by Lucky on June 01, 1997 at 15:48:05 PDT

> I read the recent editorial regarding a upcoming Captain America movie (a la ROBOCOP), and this news, together with the unmitigated deconstruction of CA's character with Leibfeld and even this latest issue ("Where ever they are, they'll be sorry they messed with me (CA)" in the last frame, only furthers my suspicion that CA's basic character is completely lost; or perhaps, rather, prostituted into a muscle-bound thug who can't derive any deeper of a motivation than VENGENCE.


> What's different between that and a bully? Nothing.


> Character sells, and what is more, character is what makes things last (i.e, How old is CA again?)


> Show some gentleness, some restraint, and some death. Heroes must be fighting for something with some significance, philosophical, moral, social -- something outside of themselves. Vengance is a poor substiute. Heroes are detectives, whether OEDIPUS, HAMLET or CA, and they must be after the truth. They must be a source of light, something for us to aspire towards. What is there elevated about "You'll be sorry!" sentiments? More Rob Leibfeld at work here, unfortunately.


> Doesn't anyone remember when the CA series was allegory, like the famous Green Lantern/Green Arrow series? Remember "Number One" (Nixon)? The Committee that worked outside the law (Iran/Contra)? That's the timber of a character that's lasted so long.


> Read your history new CA people. Some art provides obligation to what has come before as well as opportunity for new stuff -- not just a playground for the latest autuer who wants to act as though nothing has come before or since HIS towering talent (alleged). Like a vengance plot line: How boring.


> Let's have depth. I've always thought that CA and Falc's relationship was greatly unexplored for all the action they faced together. It's important for a character like CA/Steve to have someone with some history partnered with him -- someone he can let down with maybe now more than when they were together before. Somebody he can turn to when he's tired of holding up his chin, and just have a comrade who knows and things what he does before he does. I'm thinking of nice moments in the Avengers with Namor, or the original Avenger members.


> Anyway, this is long. Sorry. Just upset. Thanks for this page.


You're right; and isn't Rob Liefeld artwork just dismal as well?
Just thought of something: are you familiar with the song "Paradise City" which has the line "Captain
America is torn apart, now he's a court jester with a broken heart"? If so, do you think it applies to
Rob Liefeld's treatment of Cap?

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Re: At last!! I am omnipotent!!!! (669)

Posted by The Plaid Skull on June 11, 1997 at 08:31:49 PDT
in reply to Re: At last!! I am omnipotent!!!! (655), posted by David Medinnus on June 10, 1997 at 12:38:39 PDT

>
> > Uhh...the "N" part? C'mon lighten up!! It's all just good clean fun! Alvaro lets me do it!! I know when you get a good number you have a certain urge to post it don't you? To notify the world! No? Then I guess I'm just a rebel for whenever there is injustice, tyranny, ruthlessness...the Plaid Skull was there!!
>
> I let you do it, too...it just annoys the *&#%$^ out of me (and NO, that's not my password...).

> -DM

Greetings, Fellow Moderator!! As a sign of good faith I'll let you do the number thingy on the MUB so it can annoy the *&#%$^ out of me too!! I wanna see how it feels!


Cya
The Plaid Skull


Whenever there is injustice, tyranny, ruthlessness...the Plaid Skull was there!!!

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Re: Hah ! (670)

Posted by Fenris Ulf on June 11, 1997 at 11:13:56 PDT
in reply to Re: Hah ! (666), posted by Fenris Ulf on June 11, 1997 at 07:12:51 PDT

> > > Dear Readers,


>
> > > Hah ! I know why there haven't been any messages for a
> > > while ! It's the same reason why the Hulk message board
> > > sucks :


>
> > > Both Cap and Hulk comics suck, and that's why both
> > > have crappy message boards !


>
> > > Admit it : Captain America comics suck . Hulk comics
> > > suck . Thor is boring and doesn't even have his own
> > > comic yet . And ... Avenger comics suck .


>
> > > That only leaves the Spidey, T- Bolts, and the DCU message
> > > boards cool ( Marvel mb is okay ) .


>
> > > Quit ignoring it : the Cap message board SUCKS !


>
> > > When I came here this place was cool . What happened ?


>
> > > jamie


>
> > .....um....you came here.


>
> > Actually Hulk is one of the best comics that Marvel puts out. Hardly anyone will dispute that fact. It is well writen and continually has had great artists on it for over 10 years now.
> > Liefeld is off Cap so that alone makes it "suck" less. Robinson has done o.k. with the filler issues and Waid is coming......


>
> > An Ominous Ned


>
> You actually like Liefeld's work? No comment
Sorry, please disregard; misread your post. Stupid (but honest) mistake.

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ATTN: Dr. Strange Fans!! (671)

Posted by Red Norvell on June 11, 1997 at 19:35:27 PDT

The Living Tribunal wishes to host a Dr. Strange Message Board, but in order for one to be set up, enough people have to show interest! I, for one, thinks it's an excellent idea! A Dr. Strange board will add a great deal of diversity to the message boards. Would you like a Dr. Strange board to set up? Hopefully, everyone will give their opinions on whether they support it, or not.

-Red Norvell

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Heroes for hire board (672)

Posted by stonecold55 on June 11, 1997 at 20:33:41 PDT

Lets get a heroes for hire board

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Liefield Interview (673)

Posted by Charles Bowden on June 11, 1997 at 20:49:54 PDT

Did any of you guys read that interview in on Mania? Man was I pissed to see him refer to Cap and the Avengers as Goofy, Pluto and the Racoons from Disney. I don't know it just struck me wrong and I had to rant.

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Best Cap artist? (674)

Posted by Falcon on June 12, 1997 at 06:53:12 PDT

Who is the best Cap artist of all time?

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Re: Best Cap artist? (675)

Posted by Bubba2 on June 12, 1997 at 07:58:50 PDT
in reply to Best Cap artist? (674), posted by Falcon on June 12, 1997 at 06:53:12 PDT

> Who is the best Cap artist of all time?

King Kirby, bar none!

Happy Birthday,

Bubba2

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Re: Best Cap artist? (676)

Posted by Ned Leeds Jr. on June 12, 1997 at 08:49:22 PDT
in reply to Best Cap artist? (674), posted by Falcon on June 12, 1997 at 06:53:12 PDT

> Who is the best Cap artist of all time?

Kirby certainly defined Cap in action.......but I loved John Byrne's run on the book......

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Re: Best Cap artist? (677)

Posted by Falcon on June 12, 1997 at 09:41:33 PDT
in reply to Re: Best Cap artist? (676), posted by Ned Leeds Jr. on June 12, 1997 at 08:49:22 PDT

> > Who is the best Cap artist of all time?


> Kirby certainly defined Cap in action.......but I loved John Byrne's run on the book......


Any opinions on Mike Zeck or Kieron Dwyer?

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Re: Best Cap artist? (678)

Posted by Blanket-Man on June 12, 1997 at 09:48:59 PDT
in reply to Best Cap artist? (674), posted by Falcon on June 12, 1997 at 06:53:12 PDT

> Who is the best Cap artist of all time?

I never was a big Jack Kirby fan (I think it's the squared-off fingers).

Anyway, I've gotta put my usual vote for John Romita Sr. here. I loved his brief run (around #135 or so) during which Cap (coincidentally enough) fought Spider-Man! Also, from what I've seen of JR's Golden Age Cap work, he wasn't too shabby back then, either!

BTW, my favorite artist on FF? Romita Sr. (#102-108?) Daredevil? Romita Sr. (#12-17?) Avengers? Romita Sr. (#22) -- alright I'm stretching it there -- I greatly enjoyed the George Perez' Avengers run...

B-Man

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Re: Best Cap artist? (679)

Posted by KlaatuVeradaNikto on June 12, 1997 at 09:56:15 PDT
in reply to Re: Best Cap artist? (677), posted by Falcon on June 12, 1997 at 09:41:33 PDT

> > > Who is the best Cap artist of all time?

>
> > Kirby certainly defined Cap in action.......but I loved John Byrne's run on the book......

>
> Any opinions on Mike Zeck or Kieron Dwyer?

I guess I'll always have a soft spot in my heart for Zeck's run because that's when I first started reading Cap, with issue #271. He added a lot dynamic qualities to story.
KlaatuVeradaNikto

Host = 199.222.162.39 (199.222.162.39)



Re: Best Cap artist? (680)

Posted by Ned Leeds Jr. on June 12, 1997 at 10:02:07 PDT
in reply to Re: Best Cap artist? (679), posted by KlaatuVeradaNikto on June 12, 1997 at 09:56:15 PDT

> > > > Who is the best Cap artist of all time?

> >
> > > Kirby certainly defined Cap in action.......but I loved John Byrne's run on the book......

> >
> > Any opinions on Mike Zeck or Kieron Dwyer?

> I guess I'll always have a soft spot in my heart for Zeck's run because that's when I first started reading Cap, with issue #271. He added a lot dynamic qualities to story.
> KlaatuVeradaNikto

Cap was definitely Zeck's best work ...his stuff looked good!!!! But did you catch Secret Wars????? Awful.....everyone was in a square form....yuck...
I can't remember Dwyer by name...sorry.
Ned

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Re: Best Cap artist? (681)

Posted by Falcon on June 12, 1997 at 10:52:39 PDT
in reply to Re: Best Cap artist? (680), posted by Ned Leeds Jr. on June 12, 1997 at 10:02:07 PDT

> > > > > Who is the best Cap artist of all time?


> > >
> > > > Kirby certainly defined Cap in action.......but I loved John Byrne's run on the book......


> > >
> > > Any opinions on Mike Zeck or Kieron Dwyer?


> > I guess I'll always have a soft spot in my heart for Zeck's run because that's when I first started reading Cap, with issue #271. He added a lot dynamic qualities to story.
> > KlaatuVeradaNikto


> Cap was definitely Zeck's best work ...his stuff looked good!!!! But did you catch Secret Wars????? Awful.....everyone was in a square form....yuck...
> I can't remember Dwyer by name...sorry.
> Ned


Dwyer, I'm fairly sure, is the artist who drew CA when Crossbones was intro'd.

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Dwyer and Zeck (682)

Posted by Rob on June 12, 1997 at 11:01:52 PDT
in reply to Re: Best Cap artist? (680), posted by Ned Leeds Jr. on June 12, 1997 at 10:02:07 PDT


> > > > > Who is the best Cap artist of all time?

> > >
> > > > Kirby certainly defined Cap in action.......but I loved John Byrne's run on the book......

> > >
> > > Any opinions on Mike Zeck or Kieron Dwyer?

Well, I think I went thru my (predictable) list of favorite Cap artists a month or so ago...should be in the "archives" section at this site. Zeck is great, no doubt about it...I love his art and have been trying to get all his stuff, even his most obscure comics (e.g. Charlton stuff), Master of Kung Fu, etc. I would love to see a checklist of all his work. I had a subscription to Cap from around #260-300, and let it run out when Zeck left, and stopped reading it for a year. Zeck's art greatly contributed to my enjoyment of the series. Having said that, I've enjoyed many of the artists Cap has had over the years...including such non-fan-favorites like Sal Buscema.

Kieron Dwyer was also great around the time of "The Bloodstone Hunt" with Danny Bulanadi on inks. I absolutely hated Dwyer's work when I saw Cap #350 when it came out...and I still think it's awful stuff. But he somehow became a terrific artist a mere eight issues later or so...I wish he could have done the book longer instead of being replaced by Ron Lim.

Rob

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Cap's return (683)

Posted by mtowens on June 12, 1997 at 11:19:49 PDT

Does any fan out there know if Captain America, the FF, the Avengers etc. will ever be restored to their old continuity (pre onslaught). If so please e-mail me with what I would consider very good news.
Tod

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Hey,I'm #4400!!! (684)

Posted by The Plaid Skull on June 12, 1997 at 12:08:22 PDT

Hey,I'm #4400!!! Do I get a prize or something?:)


Cya
The Plaid Skull


Whenever there is injustice, tyranny, ruthlessness...the Plaid Skull was there!!

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Re: Dwyer and Zeck (685)

Posted by Falcon on June 12, 1997 at 12:16:57 PDT
in reply to Dwyer and Zeck (682), posted by Rob on June 12, 1997 at 11:01:52 PDT

>
> > > > > > Who is the best Cap artist of all time?


> > > >
> > > > > Kirby certainly defined Cap in action.......but I loved John Byrne's run on the book......


> > > >
> > > > Any opinions on Mike Zeck or Kieron Dwyer?


> Well, I think I went thru my (predictable) list of favorite Cap artists a month or so ago...should be in the "archives" section at this site. Zeck is great, no doubt about it...I love his art and have been trying to get all his stuff, even his most obscure comics (e.g. Charlton stuff), Master of Kung Fu, etc. I would love to see a checklist of all his work. I had a subscription to Cap from around #260-300, and let it run out when Zeck left, and stopped reading it for a year. Zeck's art greatly contributed to my enjoyment of the series. Having said that, I've enjoyed many of the artists Cap has had over the years...including such non-fan-favorites like Sal Buscema.


> Kieron Dwyer was also great around the time of "The Bloodstone Hunt" with Danny Bulanadi on inks. I absolutely hated Dwyer's work when I saw Cap #350 when it came out...and I still think it's awful stuff. But he somehow became a terrific artist a mere eight issues later or so...I wish he could have done the book longer instead of being replaced by Ron Lim.


> Rob


The look of #350 wasn't Dwyer's fault in my opinion. I think the inking and the coloring was at fault. Al Milgrom's inking gives almost anyone's pencils a sort of rough-shod look and the coloring was too brightish, almost gaudy. Bulanadi was good w/ the Bloodstone Hunt but in later issues of CA it sort of started to get a watered down look(especially with Ron Lim, whose stuff I can't stand).

Falcon

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Re: Best Cap artist? ( Don't laugh ! ) (686)

Posted by jamie on June 12, 1997 at 13:36:29 PDT
in reply to Best Cap artist? (674), posted by Falcon on June 12, 1997 at 06:53:12 PDT


Rob Liefeld . Either him, or Mike Deodato . Note that Mike
did a cover of Avengers once ( I just can't remember which
number it was that he drew ) .

jamie


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Re: Best Cap artist? ( Don't laugh ! ) (687)

Posted by jamie on June 12, 1997 at 13:36:30 PDT
in reply to Best Cap artist? (674), posted by Falcon on June 12, 1997 at 06:53:12 PDT


Rob Liefeld . Either him, or Mike Deodato . Note that Mike
did a cover of Avengers once ( I just can't remember which
number it was that he drew ) .

jamie


Host = bristlecone.frazmtn.com (204.212.38.12)



Re: Best Cap artist? ( Don't laugh ! ) (688)

Posted by TLesch on June 12, 1997 at 13:51:00 PDT
in reply to Re: Best Cap artist? ( Don't laugh ! ) (686), posted by jamie on June 12, 1997 at 13:36:29 PDT

>
> Rob Liefeld . Either him, or Mike Deodato . Note that Mike
> did a cover of Avengers once ( I just can't remember which
> number it was that he drew ) .

> jamie


Oh man, you are a brave one. Rob is an example of how you should NOT draw. He is self-taught. In other words, he knows nothing about proportion (obviously), composition, perspective...etc. He is a terrible example of an artist. I'm going to do you a huge favor; I'm going to give you the names of some phenomenal artists. Go and seek out their work, and look at how they do comics. Compare all the elements in their panels to Robs...the difference will amaze you...they are BURNE HOGARTH (Tarzan), WILL EISNER (The Spirit), WALLY WOOD and JIM STERANKO. Your comic shop dealer will help you. Good art is more than grimacing heroes, big guns and boobs, done up with a lot of croos-hatching. I'm not trying to pick on you Jamie, but seriously, you need to expose yourself to more than just today's Image clones. And that's what they are; clones. Rob can't even draw a realistic foot, for God's sake! You guys, help me out here; am I steering Jamie down the wrong road, or doing him a favor?

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Flashback Post! (689)

Posted by TLesch on June 12, 1997 at 13:59:01 PDT

Ok, true believers, it's time for a FLASHBACK post! Let us now join voices with the rest of the Merry Marvel Marching Society in singing the words to Cap's old 60's cartoon!

When Captain America throws his mighty shield,
All those who chose to oppose his shield must yield!
When he's led to a fight and a duel is due,
Then the red and the white and the blue will come through,
When Captain America throws his mighty shield!

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Re: Best Cap artist? ( Don't laugh ! ) (690)

Posted by Bubba2 on June 12, 1997 at 15:00:32 PDT
in reply to Re: Best Cap artist? ( Don't laugh ! ) (687), posted by jamie on June 12, 1997 at 13:36:30 PDT

>
> Rob Liefeld . Either him, or Mike Deodato . Note that Mike
> did a cover of Avengers once ( I just can't remember which
> number it was that he drew ) .

> jamie


Yep, good ol' Robbie! Let's take a ride through his first issue and see what a great artist he is on Cap. Nazis with no swatiskas and muffler looking guns, Cap with two facial expressions, gloves that mysteriously disapper, reappear, move for no apparent reason, a shield that goes from one arm to another without any reason, a Cap that's 6 feet tall, no make that 10 feet tall! Other artistic qualities--a TV with no plug, furniture that mysteriously moves around the room, food that looks like a cubist drew it, bad guys that all look like Spider-Man, and a wife with ankles so thin that they can't possibly support her weight. And all this artistic quality in issue #1. Wow! Rob is such a consistent and marvelous artist, huh?

Happy Birthday,

Bubba2

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Re: Best Cap artist? (691)

Posted by Roscoe on June 12, 1997 at 16:36:42 PDT
in reply to Re: Best Cap artist? (680), posted by Ned Leeds Jr. on June 12, 1997 at 10:02:07 PDT

> > > > > Who is the best Cap artist of all time?

> > >
> > > > Kirby certainly defined Cap in action.......but I loved John Byrne's run on the book......

> > >
> > > Any opinions on Mike Zeck or Kieron Dwyer?

> > I guess I'll always have a soft spot in my heart for Zeck's run because that's when I first started reading Cap, with issue #271. He added a lot dynamic qualities to story.
> > KlaatuVeradaNikto

> Cap was definitely Zeck's best work ...his stuff looked good!!!! But did you catch Secret Wars????? Awful.....everyone was in a square form....yuck...
> I can't remember Dwyer by name...sorry.
> Ned

Secret Wars wasn't that bad; it still looks three times as good as your average Marvel or Image comic these days. But the cover of Secret Wars #10 is one of my favorite covers ever. Just a tremendous cover.

-Roscoe

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Re: Best Cap artist? (692)

Posted by Roscoe on June 12, 1997 at 16:39:43 PDT
in reply to Best Cap artist? (674), posted by Falcon on June 12, 1997 at 06:53:12 PDT

> Who is the best Cap artist of all time?

Well, it has to be Jack Kirby. I mean, he created CA and drew him more than anybody else; everything else is by definition a copy.

But, there have been some other great Cap artists. The ones who spring to mind are:

Mike Zeck
John Byrne
Ron Garney

Well, not as many as I had anticipated. Honorable mention goes to Ron Lim and Keiron Dwyer, both very good artists. (I have a soft spot for Paul Neary, but...)

-Roscoe

Host = wor-ma1-13.ix.netcom.com (205.184.168.45)



Re: Best Cap artist? ( Don't laugh ! ) (693)

Posted by Falcon on June 12, 1997 at 17:12:32 PDT
in reply to Re: Best Cap artist? ( Don't laugh ! ) (690), posted by Bubba2 on June 12, 1997 at 15:00:32 PDT


> >
> > Rob Liefeld . Either him, or Mike Deodato . Note that Mike
> > did a cover of Avengers once ( I just can't remember which
> > number it was that he drew ) .

> > jamie

>
> Yep, good ol' Robbie! Let's take a ride through his first issue and see what a great artist he is on Cap. Nazis with no swatiskas and muffler looking guns, Cap with two facial expressions, gloves that mysteriously disapper, reappear, move for no apparent reason, a shield that goes from one arm to another without any reason, a Cap that's 6 feet tall, no make that 10 feet tall! Other artistic qualities--a TV with no plug, furniture that mysteriously moves around the room, food that looks like a cubist drew it, bad guys that all look like Spider-Man, and a wife with ankles so thin that they can't possibly support her weight. And all this artistic quality in issue #1. Wow! Rob is such a consistent and marvelous artist, huh?

> Happy Birthday,

> Bubba2

That was very good. Couldn't have said it better myself

Falcon

Host = 181.new-york-008.ny.dial-access.att.net (207.116.39.181)



Re: Best Cap artist? ( Don't laugh ! ) (694)

Posted by Falcon on June 12, 1997 at 17:20:52 PDT
in reply to Re: Best Cap artist? ( Don't laugh ! ) (688), posted by TLesch on June 12, 1997 at 13:51:00 PDT


> >
> > Rob Liefeld . Either him, or Mike Deodato . Note that Mike
> > did a cover of Avengers once ( I just can't remember which
> > number it was that he drew ) .

> > jamie

>
> Oh man, you are a brave one. Rob is an example of how you should NOT draw. He is self-taught. In other words, he knows nothing about proportion (obviously), composition, perspective...etc. He is a terrible example of an artist. I'm going to do you a huge favor; I'm going to give you the names of some phenomenal artists. Go and seek out their work, and look at how they do comics. Compare all the elements in their panels to Robs...the difference will amaze you...they are BURNE HOGARTH (Tarzan), WILL EISNER (The Spirit), WALLY WOOD and JIM STERANKO. Your comic shop dealer will help you. Good art is more than grimacing heroes, big guns and boobs, done up with a lot of croos-hatching. I'm not trying to pick on you Jamie, but seriously, you need to expose yourself to more than just today's Image clones. And that's what they are; clones. Rob can't even draw a realistic foot, for God's sake! You guys, help me out here; am I steering Jamie down the wrong road, or doing him a favor?

Actually the foot is a bad example being one of the hardest parts of the body to draw, but I heartily agree with your opinion of Rob Liefeld's abilities. When I first found out that Rob Liefeld became popular, I was horrified. But the three artists you've named aren't the only ones you could have mentioned; John Buscema comes to mind and more contemporary artists like Steve Rude, Mike Allred , Paul Chadwick, Mike Mignola, John Romita Jr and Alan Davis.

Falcon

Host = 181.new-york-008.ny.dial-access.att.net (207.116.39.181)



Re: Best Cap artist? ( Don't laugh ! ) (695)

Posted by TLesch on June 12, 1997 at 17:59:23 PDT
in reply to Re: Best Cap artist? ( Don't laugh ! ) (694), posted by Falcon on June 12, 1997 at 17:20:52 PDT

>
> > >
> > > Rob Liefeld . Either him, or Mike Deodato . Note that Mike
> > > did a cover of Avengers once ( I just can't remember which
> > > number it was that he drew ) .

> > > jamie

> >
> > Oh man, you are a brave one. Rob is an example of how you should NOT draw. He is self-taught. In other words, he knows nothing about proportion (obviously), composition, perspective...etc. He is a terrible example of an artist. I'm going to do you a huge favor; I'm going to give you the names of some phenomenal artists. Go and seek out their work, and look at how they do comics. Compare all the elements in their panels to Robs...the difference will amaze you...they are BURNE HOGARTH (Tarzan), WILL EISNER (The Spirit), WALLY WOOD and JIM STERANKO. Your comic shop dealer will help you. Good art is more than grimacing heroes, big guns and boobs, done up with a lot of croos-hatching. I'm not trying to pick on you Jamie, but seriously, you need to expose yourself to more than just today's Image clones. And that's what they are; clones. Rob can't even draw a realistic foot, for God's sake! You guys, help me out here; am I steering Jamie down the wrong road, or doing him a favor?

> Actually the foot is a bad example being one of the hardest parts of the body to draw, but I heartily agree with your opinion of Rob Liefeld's abilities. When I first found out that Rob Liefeld became popular, I was horrified. But the three artists you've named aren't the only ones you could have mentioned; John Buscema comes to mind and more contemporary artists like Steve Rude, Mike Allred , Paul Chadwick, Mike Mignola, John Romita Jr and Alan Davis.

> Falcon

-Oh, I definitely agree with you. Big John did create "How To Draw Comics the Marvel Way", after all. I'd add him and Romita to my group as "artists with really long careers". The others you mentioned are great examples too, although I was trying to illustrate what a long, distinguished career a really good artist can have. Rob L hasn't been around long enough to have the right to thumb his nose at the industry. Rob is in the stage of "paying his dues", but doesn't have the honesty to perceive it as such. He's the kind of guy that shows up at every convention, showing his portfolio to pros, then getting pissed because they actually try to give him constructive criticism on his art. As in Hollywood, you can't start believing all your own press.

-Great list though, Falcon. I hope we got through to someone.

Host = pm15-24.magicnet.net (206.104.204.217)



Re: Best Cap artist? ( Don't laugh ! ) (696)

Posted by Falcon on June 12, 1997 at 18:29:45 PDT
in reply to Re: Best Cap artist? ( Don't laugh ! ) (695), posted by TLesch on June 12, 1997 at 17:59:23 PDT


> >
> > > >
> > > > Rob Liefeld . Either him, or Mike Deodato . Note that Mike
> > > > did a cover of Avengers once ( I just can't remember which
> > > > number it was that he drew ) .

> > > > jamie

> > >
> > > Oh man, you are a brave one. Rob is an example of how you should NOT draw. He is self-taught. In other words, he knows nothing about proportion (obviously), composition, perspective...etc. He is a terrible example of an artist. I'm going to do you a huge favor; I'm going to give you the names of some phenomenal artists. Go and seek out their work, and look at how they do comics. Compare all the elements in their panels to Robs...the difference will amaze you...they are BURNE HOGARTH (Tarzan), WILL EISNER (The Spirit), WALLY WOOD and JIM STERANKO. Your comic shop dealer will help you. Good art is more than grimacing heroes, big guns and boobs, done up with a lot of croos-hatching. I'm not trying to pick on you Jamie, but seriously, you need to expose yourself to more than just today's Image clones. And that's what they are; clones. Rob can't even draw a realistic foot, for God's sake! You guys, help me out here; am I steering Jamie down the wrong road, or doing him a favor?

> > Actually the foot is a bad example being one of the hardest parts of the body to draw, but I heartily agree with your opinion of Rob Liefeld's abilities. When I first found out that Rob Liefeld became popular, I was horrified. But the three artists you've named aren't the only ones you could have mentioned; John Buscema comes to mind and more contemporary artists like Steve Rude, Mike Allred , Paul Chadwick, Mike Mignola, John Romita Jr and Alan Davis.

> > Falcon

> -Oh, I definitely agree with you. Big John did create "How To Draw Comics the Marvel Way", after all. I'd add him and Romita to my group as "artists with really long careers". The others you mentioned are great examples too, although I was trying to illustrate what a long, distinguished career a really good artist can have. Rob L hasn't been around long enough to have the right to thumb his nose at the industry. Rob is in the stage of "paying his dues", but doesn't have the honesty to perceive it as such. He's the kind of guy that shows up at every convention, showing his portfolio to pros, then getting pissed because they actually try to give him constructive criticism on his art. As in Hollywood, you can't start believing all your own press.

> -Great list though, Falcon. I hope we got through to someone.

I just want to make one point about your previous message: being self-taught doesn't necessarily mean not drawing welll. It depends on how one teaches one's self. It seems that Liefeld learned to draw strictly from comic books and as any great artist will tell you (except maybe people like Frank Frazetta who allegedly uses no reference) that's not the way to go. You can see it in the way he goes through various phases in copying other peoples work and/or characters, whether it be Jim Lee, John Byrne or Simon Bisley;do you remember his knock-off of Lobo? And now he's going to expectorate this stupid knock-off of Capt. A. I'm dumbfounded that Marvel hired him.

Falcon

Host = 181.new-york-008.ny.dial-access.att.net (207.116.39.181)



Re: Best Cap artist? ( Don't laugh ! ) (697)

Posted by TLesch on June 12, 1997 at 18:41:23 PDT
in reply to Re: Best Cap artist? ( Don't laugh ! ) (696), posted by Falcon on June 12, 1997 at 18:29:45 PDT

>
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Rob Liefeld . Either him, or Mike Deodato . Note that Mike
> > > > > did a cover of Avengers once ( I just can't remember which
> > > > > number it was that he drew ) .

> > > > > jamie

> > > >
> > > > Oh man, you are a brave one. Rob is an example of how you should NOT draw. He is self-taught. In other words, he knows nothing about proportion (obviously), composition, perspective...etc. He is a terrible example of an artist. I'm going to do you a huge favor; I'm going to give you the names of some phenomenal artists. Go and seek out their work, and look at how they do comics. Compare all the elements in their panels to Robs...the difference will amaze you...they are BURNE HOGARTH (Tarzan), WILL EISNER (The Spirit), WALLY WOOD and JIM STERANKO. Your comic shop dealer will help you. Good art is more than grimacing heroes, big guns and boobs, done up with a lot of croos-hatching. I'm not trying to pick on you Jamie, but seriously, you need to expose yourself to more than just today's Image clones. And that's what they are; clones. Rob can't even draw a realistic foot, for God's sake! You guys, help me out here; am I steering Jamie down the wrong road, or doing him a favor?

> > > Actually the foot is a bad example being one of the hardest parts of the body to draw, but I heartily agree with your opinion of Rob Liefeld's abilities. When I first found out that Rob Liefeld became popular, I was horrified. But the three artists you've named aren't the only ones you could have mentioned; John Buscema comes to mind and more contemporary artists like Steve Rude, Mike Allred , Paul Chadwick, Mike Mignola, John Romita Jr and Alan Davis.

> > > Falcon

> > -Oh, I definitely agree with you. Big John did create "How To Draw Comics the Marvel Way", after all. I'd add him and Romita to my group as "artists with really long careers". The others you mentioned are great examples too, although I was trying to illustrate what a long, distinguished career a really good artist can have. Rob L hasn't been around long enough to have the right to thumb his nose at the industry. Rob is in the stage of "paying his dues", but doesn't have the honesty to perceive it as such. He's the kind of guy that shows up at every convention, showing his portfolio to pros, then getting pissed because they actually try to give him constructive criticism on his art. As in Hollywood, you can't start believing all your own press.

> > -Great list though, Falcon. I hope we got through to someone.

> I just want to make one point about your previous message: being self-taught doesn't necessarily mean not drawing welll. It depends on how one teaches one's self. It seems that Liefeld learned to draw strictly from comic books and as any great artist will tell you (except maybe people like Frank Frazetta who allegedly uses no reference) that's not the way to go. You can see it in the way he goes through various phases in copying other peoples work and/or characters, whether it be Jim Lee, John Byrne or Simon Bisley;do you remember his knock-off of Lobo? And now he's going to expectorate this stupid knock-off of Capt. A. I'm dumbfounded that Marvel hired him.

> Falcon

I agree; I myself am a self-taught artist, and I work for Planet Hollywood. What is sad to me is that those artists who copy others' work DO get hired. Hall of Heroes comics featured clones of McFarlane (Kanuiga), Liefeld, etc. and now those guys are being touted in magazines like Wizard! Even Jim Lee aped Frank Miller with his Deathblow comic. It's a style rip-off of Sin City. But people like myself sit down with Buscemas book, Hogarth's anatomy book, LISTEN to professionals, and buy lots of books on drawing from the art store. Then, you chain yourself to a table and practice. Every day. Marvel is looking for a fast buck with stunts like HR. They need to please stockholders, pure and simple.

Host = pm15-24.magicnet.net (206.104.204.217)



Re: Best Cap artist? ( Don't laugh ! ) (698)

Posted by Falcon on June 12, 1997 at 19:08:34 PDT
in reply to Re: Best Cap artist? ( Don't laugh ! ) (697), posted by TLesch on June 12, 1997 at 18:41:23 PDT


> >
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Rob Liefeld . Either him, or Mike Deodato . Note that Mike
> > > > > > did a cover of Avengers once ( I just can't remember which
> > > > > > number it was that he drew ) .

> > > > > > jamie

> > > > >
> > > > > Oh man, you are a brave one. Rob is an example of how you should NOT draw. He is self-taught. In other words, he knows nothing about proportion (obviously), composition, perspective...etc. He is a terrible example of an artist. I'm going to do you a huge favor; I'm going to give you the names of some phenomenal artists. Go and seek out their work, and look at how they do comics. Compare all the elements in their panels to Robs...the difference will amaze you...they are BURNE HOGARTH (Tarzan), WILL EISNER (The Spirit), WALLY WOOD and JIM STERANKO. Your comic shop dealer will help you. Good art is more than grimacing heroes, big guns and boobs, done up with a lot of croos-hatching. I'm not trying to pick on you Jamie, but seriously, you need to expose yourself to more than just today's Image clones. And that's what they are; clones. Rob can't even draw a realistic foot, for God's sake! You guys, help me out here; am I steering Jamie down the wrong road, or doing him a favor?

> > > > Actually the foot is a bad example being one of the hardest parts of the body to draw, but I heartily agree with your opinion of Rob Liefeld's abilities. When I first found out that Rob Liefeld became popular, I was horrified. But the three artists you've named aren't the only ones you could have mentioned; John Buscema comes to mind and more contemporary artists like Steve Rude, Mike Allred , Paul Chadwick, Mike Mignola, John Romita Jr and Alan Davis.

> > > > Falcon

> > > -Oh, I definitely agree with you. Big John did create "How To Draw Comics the Marvel Way", after all. I'd add him and Romita to my group as "artists with really long careers". The others you mentioned are great examples too, although I was trying to illustrate what a long, distinguished career a really good artist can have. Rob L hasn't been around long enough to have the right to thumb his nose at the industry. Rob is in the stage of "paying his dues", but doesn't have the honesty to perceive it as such. He's the kind of guy that shows up at every convention, showing his portfolio to pros, then getting pissed because they actually try to give him constructive criticism on his art. As in Hollywood, you can't start believing all your own press.

> > > -Great list though, Falcon. I hope we got through to someone.

> > I just want to make one point about your previous message: being self-taught doesn't necessarily mean not drawing welll. It depends on how one teaches one's self. It seems that Liefeld learned to draw strictly from comic books and as any great artist will tell you (except maybe people like Frank Frazetta who allegedly uses no reference) that's not the way to go. You can see it in the way he goes through various phases in copying other peoples work and/or characters, whether it be Jim Lee, John Byrne or Simon Bisley;do you remember his knock-off of Lobo? And now he's going to expectorate this stupid knock-off of Capt. A. I'm dumbfounded that Marvel hired him.

> > Falcon

> I agree; I myself am a self-taught artist, and I work for Planet Hollywood. What is sad to me is that those artists who copy others' work DO get hired. Hall of Heroes comics featured clones of McFarlane (Kanuiga), Liefeld, etc. and now those guys are being touted in magazines like Wizard! Even Jim Lee aped Frank Miller with his Deathblow comic. It's a style rip-off of Sin City. But people like myself sit down with Buscemas book, Hogarth's anatomy book, LISTEN to professionals, and buy lots of books on drawing from the art store. Then, you chain yourself to a table and practice. Every day. Marvel is looking for a fast buck with stunts like HR. They need to please stockholders, pure and simple.

Planet Hollywood? That's cool. What do you do for Planet Hollywood?

Falcon

Host = 181.new-york-008.ny.dial-access.att.net (207.116.39.181)



Secret Wars (699)

Posted by Ned Leeds Jr. on June 13, 1997 at 07:31:04 PDT
in reply to Re: Best Cap artist? (691), posted by Roscoe on June 12, 1997 at 16:36:42 PDT

> > > > > > Who is the best Cap artist of all time?

> > > >
> > > > > Kirby certainly defined Cap in action.......but I loved John Byrne's run on the book......

> > > >
> > > > Any opinions on Mike Zeck or Kieron Dwyer?

> > > I guess I'll always have a soft spot in my heart for Zeck's run because that's when I first started reading Cap, with issue #271. He added a lot dynamic qualities to story.
> > > KlaatuVeradaNikto

> > Cap was definitely Zeck's best work ...his stuff looked good!!!! But did you catch Secret Wars????? Awful.....everyone was in a square form....yuck...
> > I can't remember Dwyer by name...sorry.
> > Ned

> Secret Wars wasn't that bad; it still looks three times as good as your average Marvel or Image comic these days. But the cover of Secret Wars #10 is one of my favorite covers ever. Just a tremendous cover.

> -Roscoe

The covers were great....but the artwork on the inside of the later part of the series looked rushed and cubic.

Ned Critic Jr.

Host = 155.42.32.44 (155.42.32.44)



Re: Best Cap artist? ( Don't laugh ! ) (700)

Posted by Ned Leeds Jr. on June 13, 1997 at 07:36:41 PDT
in reply to Re: Best Cap artist? ( Don't laugh ! ) (698), posted by Falcon on June 12, 1997 at 19:08:34 PDT

>
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Rob Liefeld . Either him, or Mike Deodato . Note that Mike
> > > > > > > did a cover of Avengers once ( I just can't remember which
> > > > > > > number it was that he drew ) .

> > > > > > > jamie

> > > > > >
> > > > > > Oh man, you are a brave one. Rob is an example of how you should NOT draw. He is self-taught. In other words, he knows nothing about proportion (obviously), composition, perspective...etc. He is a terrible example of an artist. I'm going to do you a huge favor; I'm going to give you the names of some phenomenal artists. Go and seek out their work, and look at how they do comics. Compare all the elements in their panels to Robs...the difference will amaze you...they are BURNE HOGARTH (Tarzan), WILL EISNER (The Spirit), WALLY WOOD and JIM STERANKO. Your comic shop dealer will help you. Good art is more than grimacing heroes, big guns and boobs, done up with a lot of croos-hatching. I'm not trying to pick on you Jamie, but seriously, you need to expose yourself to more than just today's Image clones. And that's what they are; clones. Rob can't even draw a realistic foot, for God's sake! You guys, help me out here; am I steering Jamie down the wrong road, or doing him a favor?

> > > > > Actually the foot is a bad example being one of the hardest parts of the body to draw, but I heartily agree with your opinion of Rob Liefeld's abilities. When I first found out that Rob Liefeld became popular, I was horrified. But the three artists you've named aren't the only ones you could have mentioned; John Buscema comes to mind and more contemporary artists like Steve Rude, Mike Allred , Paul Chadwick, Mike Mignola, John Romita Jr and Alan Davis.

> > > > > Falcon

> > > > -Oh, I definitely agree with you. Big John did create "How To Draw Comics the Marvel Way", after all. I'd add him and Romita to my group as "artists with really long careers". The others you mentioned are great examples too, although I was trying to illustrate what a long, distinguished career a really good artist can have. Rob L hasn't been around long enough to have the right to thumb his nose at the industry. Rob is in the stage of "paying his dues", but doesn't have the honesty to perceive it as such. He's the kind of guy that shows up at every convention, showing his portfolio to pros, then getting pissed because they actually try to give him constructive criticism on his art. As in Hollywood, you can't start believing all your own press.

> > > > -Great list though, Falcon. I hope we got through to someone.

> > > I just want to make one point about your previous message: being self-taught doesn't necessarily mean not drawing welll. It depends on how one teaches one's self. It seems that Liefeld learned to draw strictly from comic books and as any great artist will tell you (except maybe people like Frank Frazetta who allegedly uses no reference) that's not the way to go. You can see it in the way he goes through various phases in copying other peoples work and/or characters, whether it be Jim Lee, John Byrne or Simon Bisley;do you remember his knock-off of Lobo? And now he's going to expectorate this stupid knock-off of Capt. A. I'm dumbfounded that Marvel hired him.

> > > Falcon

> > I agree; I myself am a self-taught artist, and I work for Planet Hollywood. What is sad to me is that those artists who copy others' work DO get hired. Hall of Heroes comics featured clones of McFarlane (Kanuiga), Liefeld, etc. and now those guys are being touted in magazines like Wizard! Even Jim Lee aped Frank Miller with his Deathblow comic. It's a style rip-off of Sin City. But people like myself sit down with Buscemas book, Hogarth's anatomy book, LISTEN to professionals, and buy lots of books on drawing from the art store. Then, you chain yourself to a table and practice. Every day. Marvel is looking for a fast buck with stunts like HR. They need to please stockholders, pure and simple.

> Planet Hollywood? That's cool. What do you do for Planet Hollywood?

> Falcon

It isn't teaching oneself that is the problem....it is a lack of effort or commitment to improve oneself.
As for artists who immitate other artists...it is like Liefield's writing or any comic writer who doesn't read anything but comics..."A snake that feeds off of itself is eventually consumed..." The quality just is not what it should be...certainly less than if there were outside influences.

A Philosophical Ned

P.S. I used to work for Planet Hollywood and then went to Harley Davidson Cafe......sighhhh

Host = 155.42.32.44 (155.42.32.44)



Re: Secret Wars (701)

Posted by Falcon on June 13, 1997 at 07:37:34 PDT
in reply to Secret Wars (699), posted by Ned Leeds Jr. on June 13, 1997 at 07:31:04 PDT

> > > Cap was definitely Zeck's best work ...his stuff looked good!!!! But did you catch Secret Wars????? Awful.....everyone was in a square form....yuck...
> > > I can't remember Dwyer by name...sorry.
> > > Ned

> > Secret Wars wasn't that bad; it still looks three times as good as your average Marvel or Image comic these days. But the cover of Secret Wars #10 is one of my favorite covers ever. Just a tremendous cover.


> > -Roscoe


> The covers were great....but the artwork on the inside of the later part of the series looked rushed and cubic.


> Ned Critic Jr.

I would have to say that Zeck's work in SW had its ups and downs. Probably the reason for its somewhat substandard look (compared to Zeck's other stuff) might have been Zeck's commitment to other stuff at the time (I'm not sure about that; wasn't he doing Captain America then?), not to mention the fact that he had all these heros and villains to draw many of which he had no prior experience in drawing.

Falcon

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Re: Best Cap artist? ( Don't laugh ! ) (702)

Posted by Falcon on June 13, 1997 at 07:41:23 PDT
in reply to Re: Best Cap artist? ( Don't laugh ! ) (700), posted by Ned Leeds Jr. on June 13, 1997 at 07:36:41 PDT

> >
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Rob Liefeld . Either him, or Mike Deodato . Note that Mike
> > > > > > > > did a cover of Avengers once ( I just can't remember which
> > > > > > > > number it was that he drew ) .


> > > > > > > > jamie


> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Oh man, you are a brave one. Rob is an example of how you should NOT draw. He is self-taught. In other words, he knows nothing about proportion (obviously), composition, perspective...etc. He is a terrible example of an artist. I'm going to do you a huge favor; I'm going to give you the names of some phenomenal artists. Go and seek out their work, and look at how they do comics. Compare all the elements in their panels to Robs...the difference will amaze you...they are BURNE HOGARTH (Tarzan), WILL EISNER (The Spirit), WALLY WOOD and JIM STERANKO. Your comic shop dealer will help you. Good art is more than grimacing heroes, big guns and boobs, done up with a lot of croos-hatching. I'm not trying to pick on you Jamie, but seriously, you need to expose yourself to more than just today's Image clones. And that's what they are; clones. Rob can't even draw a realistic foot, for God's sake! You guys, help me out here; am I steering Jamie down the wrong road, or doing him a favor?


> > > > > > Actually the foot is a bad example being one of the hardest parts of the body to draw, but I heartily agree with your opinion of Rob Liefeld's abilities. When I first found out that Rob Liefeld became popular, I was horrified. But the three artists you've named aren't the only ones you could have mentioned; John Buscema comes to mind and more contemporary artists like Steve Rude, Mike Allred , Paul Chadwick, Mike Mignola, John Romita Jr and Alan Davis.


> > > > > > Falcon


> > > > > -Oh, I definitely agree with you. Big John did create "How To Draw Comics the Marvel Way", after all. I'd add him and Romita to my group as "artists with really long careers". The others you mentioned are great examples too, although I was trying to illustrate what a long, distinguished career a really good artist can have. Rob L hasn't been around long enough to have the right to thumb his nose at the industry. Rob is in the stage of "paying his dues", but doesn't have the honesty to perceive it as such. He's the kind of guy that shows up at every convention, showing his portfolio to pros, then getting pissed because they actually try to give him constructive criticism on his art. As in Hollywood, you can't start believing all your own press.


> > > > > -Great list though, Falcon. I hope we got through to someone.


> > > > I just want to make one point about your previous message: being self-taught doesn't necessarily mean not drawing welll. It depends on how one teaches one's self. It seems that Liefeld learned to draw strictly from comic books and as any great artist will tell you (except maybe people like Frank Frazetta who allegedly uses no reference) that's not the way to go. You can see it in the way he goes through various phases in copying other peoples work and/or characters, whether it be Jim Lee, John Byrne or Simon Bisley;do you remember his knock-off of Lobo? And now he's going to expectorate this stupid knock-off of Capt. A. I'm dumbfounded that Marvel hired him.


> > > > Falcon


> > > I agree; I myself am a self-taught artist, and I work for Planet Hollywood. What is sad to me is that those artists who copy others' work DO get hired. Hall of Heroes comics featured clones of McFarlane (Kanuiga), Liefeld, etc. and now those guys are being touted in magazines like Wizard! Even Jim Lee aped Frank Miller with his Deathblow comic. It's a style rip-off of Sin City. But people like myself sit down with Buscemas book, Hogarth's anatomy book, LISTEN to professionals, and buy lots of books on drawing from the art store. Then, you chain yourself to a table and practice. Every day. Marvel is looking for a fast buck with stunts like HR. They need to please stockholders, pure and simple.


> > Planet Hollywood? That's cool. What do you do for Planet Hollywood?


> > Falcon


> It isn't teaching oneself that is the problem....it is a lack of effort or commitment to improve oneself.
> As for artists who immitate other artists...it is like Liefield's writing or any comic writer who doesn't read anything but comics..."A snake that feeds off of itself is eventually consumed..." The quality just is not what it should be...certainly less than if there were outside influences.


> A Philosophical Ned


> P.S. I used to work for Planet Hollywood and then went to Harley Davidson Cafe......sighhhh


Both you and TLesch work/worked in Planet Hollywood? Small world.

Falcon

Host = mpngate5.ca.us.ibm.com (198.133.29.53)



Re: Best Cap artist? (703)

Posted by KlaatuVeradaNikto on June 13, 1997 at 09:22:31 PDT
in reply to Re: Best Cap artist? (680), posted by Ned Leeds Jr. on June 12, 1997 at 10:02:07 PDT

> > > > > Who is the best Cap artist of all time?

> > >
> > > > Kirby certainly defined Cap in action.......but I loved John Byrne's run on the book......

> > >
> > > Any opinions on Mike Zeck or Kieron Dwyer?

> > I guess I'll always have a soft spot in my heart for Zeck's run because that's when I first started reading Cap, with issue #271. He added a lot dynamic qualities to story.
> > KlaatuVeradaNikto

> Cap was definitely Zeck's best work ...his stuff looked good!!!! But did you catch Secret Wars????? Awful.....everyone was in a square form....yuck...
> I can't remember Dwyer by name...sorry.
> Ned

Ya, that wasn't Zeck's best effort. He really went half-a**ed on that one. A bad move on his part seeing as how it was the biggest event in comics at the time and a great forum to show his chops. He blew it big time.
KlaatuVeradaNikto

Host = 199.222.162.39 (199.222.162.39)



Sal Buscema (704)

Posted by KlaatuVeradaNikto on June 13, 1997 at 09:26:00 PDT
in reply to Dwyer and Zeck (682), posted by Rob on June 12, 1997 at 11:01:52 PDT

Having said that, I've enjoyed many of the artists Cap has had over the years...including such non-fan-favorites like Sal Buscema.

I really hate that Sal Buscema's work on Cap goes so unappreciated. I think he really did some great stuff. His Hulk is still my personal favorite. Sal with the right inker (isn't that true with any artist?) is a great artist.
KlaatuVeradaNikto

Host = 199.222.162.39 (199.222.162.39)



Re: Best Cap artist? ( Don't laugh ! ) (705)

Posted by TLesch on June 13, 1997 at 10:25:05 PDT
in reply to Re: Best Cap artist? ( Don't laugh ! ) (702), posted by Falcon on June 13, 1997 at 07:41:23 PDT

> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Rob Liefeld . Either him, or Mike Deodato . Note that Mike
> > > > > > > > > did a cover of Avengers once ( I just can't remember which
> > > > > > > > > number it was that he drew ) .

>
> > > > > > > > > jamie

>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Oh man, you are a brave one. Rob is an example of how you should NOT draw. He is self-taught. In other words, he knows nothing about proportion (obviously), composition, perspective...etc. He is a terrible example of an artist. I'm going to do you a huge favor; I'm going to give you the names of some phenomenal artists. Go and seek out their work, and look at how they do comics. Compare all the elements in their panels to Robs...the difference will amaze you...they are BURNE HOGARTH (Tarzan), WILL EISNER (The Spirit), WALLY WOOD and JIM STERANKO. Your comic shop dealer will help you. Good art is more than grimacing heroes, big guns and boobs, done up with a lot of croos-hatching. I'm not trying to pick on you Jamie, but seriously, you need to expose yourself to more than just today's Image clones. And that's what they are; clones. Rob can't even draw a realistic foot, for God's sake! You guys, help me out here; am I steering Jamie down the wrong road, or doing him a favor?

>
> > > > > > > Actually the foot is a bad example being one of the hardest parts of the body to draw, but I heartily agree with your opinion of Rob Liefeld's abilities. When I first found out that Rob Liefeld became popular, I was horrified. But the three artists you've named aren't the only ones you could have mentioned; John Buscema comes to mind and more contemporary artists like Steve Rude, Mike Allred , Paul Chadwick, Mike Mignola, John Romita Jr and Alan Davis.

>
> > > > > > > Falcon

>
> > > > > > -Oh, I definitely agree with you. Big John did create "How To Draw Comics the Marvel Way", after all. I'd add him and Romita to my group as "artists with really long careers". The others you mentioned are great examples too, although I was trying to illustrate what a long, distinguished career a really good artist can have. Rob L hasn't been around long enough to have the right to thumb his nose at the industry. Rob is in the stage of "paying his dues", but doesn't have the honesty to perceive it as such. He's the kind of guy that shows up at every convention, showing his portfolio to pros, then getting pissed because they actually try to give him constructive criticism on his art. As in Hollywood, you can't start believing all your own press.

>
> > > > > > -Great list though, Falcon. I hope we got through to someone.

>
> > > > > I just want to make one point about your previous message: being self-taught doesn't necessarily mean not drawing welll. It depends on how one teaches one's self. It seems that Liefeld learned to draw strictly from comic books and as any great artist will tell you (except maybe people like Frank Frazetta who allegedly uses no reference) that's not the way to go. You can see it in the way he goes through various phases in copying other peoples work and/or characters, whether it be Jim Lee, John Byrne or Simon Bisley;do you remember his knock-off of Lobo? And now he's going to expectorate this stupid knock-off of Capt. A. I'm dumbfounded that Marvel hired him.

>
> > > > > Falcon

>
> > > > I agree; I myself am a self-taught artist, and I work for Planet Hollywood. What is sad to me is that those artists who copy others' work DO get hired. Hall of Heroes comics featured clones of McFarlane (Kanuiga), Liefeld, etc. and now those guys are being touted in magazines like Wizard! Even Jim Lee aped Frank Miller with his Deathblow comic. It's a style rip-off of Sin City. But people like myself sit down with Buscemas book, Hogarth's anatomy book, LISTEN to professionals, and buy lots of books on drawing from the art store. Then, you chain yourself to a table and practice. Every day. Marvel is looking for a fast buck with stunts like HR. They need to please stockholders, pure and simple.

>
> > > Planet Hollywood? That's cool. What do you do for Planet Hollywood?

>
> > > Falcon

>
> > It isn't teaching oneself that is the problem....it is a lack of effort or commitment to improve oneself.
> > As for artists who immitate other artists...it is like Liefield's writing or any comic writer who doesn't read anything but comics..."A snake that feeds off of itself is eventually consumed..." The quality just is not what it should be...certainly less than if there were outside influences.

>
> > A Philosophical Ned

>
> > P.S. I used to work for Planet Hollywood and then went to Harley Davidson Cafe......sighhhh

>
> Both you and TLesch work/worked in Planet Hollywood? Small world.

> Falcon

Wow, that's freaky, unless you were just joking, Ned... but to answer Falcon's question, I am the graphic artist for the merchandise division. Yes, it's just me. Been with PH about a year and a half. I also work for Marvel Mania, since it's another of our concepts. As far as training myself, I guess I was lucky, because I've always loved to read novels in addition to comics. I once worked for TSR as an illustrator, so I've been exposed to fantasy, sci-fi, etc. I may sound like a public service message here, but really, nothing beats a good book for entertainment. Your imagination can tell you things that no movie or comic could. Ah, the wondrous mind..... Ned, what did you do at PH?

Host = pm12-12.magicnet.net (206.104.204.109)



Re: Sal Buscema (706)

Posted by Falcon on June 13, 1997 at 10:25:53 PDT
in reply to Sal Buscema (704), posted by KlaatuVeradaNikto on June 13, 1997 at 09:26:00 PDT

> Having said that, I've enjoyed many of the artists Cap has had over the years...including such non-fan-favorites like Sal Buscema.


> I really hate that Sal Buscema's work on Cap goes so unappreciated. I think he really did some great stuff. His Hulk is still my personal favorite. Sal with the right inker (isn't that true with any artist?) is a great artist.
> KlaatuVeradaNikto


During his THOR stint, on THOR #369, Geof Isherwood was the inker. I though that worked very well.

Falcon

Host = mpngate1.ca.us.ibm.com (198.133.29.49)



Re: Secret Wars (707)

Posted by Rob on June 13, 1997 at 10:32:53 PDT
in reply to Re: Secret Wars (701), posted by Falcon on June 13, 1997 at 07:37:34 PDT


> I would have to say that Zeck's work in SW had its ups and downs. Probably the reason for its somewhat substandard look (compared to Zeck's other stuff) might have been Zeck's commitment to other stuff at the time (I'm not sure about that; wasn't he doing Captain America then?), not to mention the fact that he had all these heros and villains to draw many of which he had no prior experience in drawing.

> Falcon

I think (if memory serves; could be wrong) that Zeck left Cap to do Secret Wars....I think that's why I never bought Secret Wars (until years later).

Rob

Host = i275.driveninc.com (207.142.98.75)



Re: Flashback Post! (708)

Posted by Michael Kaiser on June 13, 1997 at 16:19:58 PDT
in reply to Flashback Post! (689), posted by TLesch on June 12, 1997 at 13:59:01 PDT

> Ok, true believers, it's time for a FLASHBACK post! Let us now join voices with the rest of the Merry Marvel Marching Society in singing the words to Cap's old 60's cartoon!

> When Captain America throws his mighty shield,
> All those who chose to oppose his shield must yield!
> When he's led to a fight and a duel is due,
> Then the red and the white and the blue will come through,
> When Captain America throws his mighty shield!

*hums along merrily and throws in a link in case someone out there hasn't heard that classic* http://www.sigma.net/capt_am/media/captheme1.wav

Host = mhl-ca5-16.ix.netcom.com (206.217.141.80)



Re: Best Cap artist? (709)

Posted by Michael Kaiser on June 13, 1997 at 16:24:25 PDT
in reply to Best Cap artist? (674), posted by Falcon on June 12, 1997 at 06:53:12 PDT

> Who is the best Cap artist of all time?

Mike Zeck hands down. Or wait...maybe Keiron Dwyer. Or uh...maybe Kevin Maguire. Or is it Liefeld? *laughs himself silly* I kill me!

Host = mhl-ca5-16.ix.netcom.com (206.217.141.80)



Re: Best Cap artist? ( Don't laugh ! ) (710)

Posted by Michael Kaiser on June 13, 1997 at 16:33:53 PDT
in reply to Re: Best Cap artist? ( Don't laugh ! ) (705), posted by TLesch on June 13, 1997 at 10:25:05 PDT

> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Rob Liefeld . Either him, or Mike Deodato . Note that Mike
> > > > > > > > > > did a cover of Avengers once ( I just can't remember which
> > > > > > > > > > number it was that he drew ) .

> >
> > > > > > > > > > jamie

> >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Oh man, you are a brave one. Rob is an example of how you should NOT draw. He is self-taught. In other words, he knows nothing about proportion (obviously), composition, perspective...etc. He is a terrible example of an artist. I'm going to do you a huge favor; I'm going to give you the names of some phenomenal artists. Go and seek out their work, and look at how they do comics. Compare all the elements in their panels to Robs...the difference will amaze you...they are BURNE HOGARTH (Tarzan), WILL EISNER (The Spirit), WALLY WOOD and JIM STERANKO. Your comic shop dealer will help you. Good art is more than grimacing heroes, big guns and boobs, done up with a lot of croos-hatching. I'm not trying to pick on you Jamie, but seriously, you need to expose yourself to more than just today's Image clones. And that's what they are; clones. Rob can't even draw a realistic foot, for God's sake! You guys, help me out here; am I steering Jamie down the wrong road, or doing him a favor?

> >
> > > > > > > > Actually the foot is a bad example being one of the hardest parts of the body to draw, but I heartily agree with your opinion of Rob Liefeld's abilities. When I first found out that Rob Liefeld became popular, I was horrified. But the three artists you've named aren't the only ones you could have mentioned; John Buscema comes to mind and more contemporary artists like Steve Rude, Mike Allred , Paul Chadwick, Mike Mignola, John Romita Jr and Alan Davis.

> >
> > > > > > > > Falcon

> >
> > > > > > > -Oh, I definitely agree with you. Big John did create "How To Draw Comics the Marvel Way", after all. I'd add him and Romita to my group as "artists with really long careers". The others you mentioned are great examples too, although I was trying to illustrate what a long, distinguished career a really good artist can have. Rob L hasn't been around long enough to have the right to thumb his nose at the industry. Rob is in the stage of "paying his dues", but doesn't have the honesty to perceive it as such. He's the kind of guy that shows up at every convention, showing his portfolio to pros, then getting pissed because they actually try to give him constructive criticism on his art. As in Hollywood, you can't start believing all your own press.

> >
> > > > > > > -Great list though, Falcon. I hope we got through to someone.

> >
> > > > > > I just want to make one point about your previous message: being self-taught doesn't necessarily mean not drawing welll. It depends on how one teaches one's self. It seems that Liefeld learned to draw strictly from comic books and as any great artist will tell you (except maybe people like Frank Frazetta who allegedly uses no reference) that's not the way to go. You can see it in the way he goes through various phases in copying other peoples work and/or characters, whether it be Jim Lee, John Byrne or Simon Bisley;do you remember his knock-off of Lobo? And now he's going to expectorate this stupid knock-off of Capt. A. I'm dumbfounded that Marvel hired him.

> >
> > > > > > Falcon

> >
> > > > > I agree; I myself am a self-taught artist, and I work for Planet Hollywood. What is sad to me is that those artists who copy others' work DO get hired. Hall of Heroes comics featured clones of McFarlane (Kanuiga), Liefeld, etc. and now those guys are being touted in magazines like Wizard! Even Jim Lee aped Frank Miller with his Deathblow comic. It's a style rip-off of Sin City. But people like myself sit down with Buscemas book, Hogarth's anatomy book, LISTEN to professionals, and buy lots of books on drawing from the art store. Then, you chain yourself to a table and practice. Every day. Marvel is looking for a fast buck with stunts like HR. They need to please stockholders, pure and simple.

> >
> > > > Planet Hollywood? That's cool. What do you do for Planet Hollywood?

> >
> > > > Falcon

> >
> > > It isn't teaching oneself that is the problem....it is a lack of effort or commitment to improve oneself.
> > > As for artists who immitate other artists...it is like Liefield's writing or any comic writer who doesn't read anything but comics..."A snake that feeds off of itself is eventually consumed..." The quality just is not what it should be...certainly less than if there were outside influences.

> >
> > > A Philosophical Ned

> >
> > > P.S. I used to work for Planet Hollywood and then went to Harley Davidson Cafe......sighhhh

> >
> > Both you and TLesch work/worked in Planet Hollywood? Small world.

> > Falcon

> Wow, that's freaky, unless you were just joking, Ned... but to answer Falcon's question, I am the graphic artist for the merchandise division. Yes, it's just me. Been with PH about a year and a half. I also work for Marvel Mania, since it's another of our concepts. As far as training myself, I guess I was lucky, because I've always loved to read novels in addition to comics. I once worked for TSR as an illustrator, so I've been exposed to fantasy, sci-fi, etc. I may sound like a public service message here, but really, nothing beats a good book for entertainment. Your imagination can tell you things that no movie or comic could. Ah, the wondrous mind..... Ned, what did you do at PH?

Couldn't help over-"hearing" and uh...noticed there are a lot of artists chewing the fat here. Any of you have pics of Cap you've drawn scanned? *hopeful smile* Could use for my fan art section.

Host = mhl-ca5-16.ix.netcom.com (206.217.141.80)



Re: Flashback Post! (711)

Posted by TLesch on June 13, 1997 at 17:47:58 PDT
in reply to Re: Flashback Post! (708), posted by Michael Kaiser on June 13, 1997 at 16:19:58 PDT

> > Ok, true believers, it's time for a FLASHBACK post! Let us now join voices with the rest of the Merry Marvel Marching Society in singing the words to Cap's old 60's cartoon!

> > When Captain America throws his mighty shield,
> > All those who chose to oppose his shield must yield!
> > When he's led to a fight and a duel is due,
> > Then the red and the white and the blue will come through,
> > When Captain America throws his mighty shield!

> *hums along merrily and throws in a link in case someone out there hasn't heard that classic* http://www.sigma.net/capt_am/media/captheme1.wav

Thanx, Michael! I'm goin' to yer site right now.....

Host = pm8-24.magicnet.net (206.104.201.249)



Re: Best Cap artist? ( Don't laugh ! ) (712)

Posted by TLesch on June 13, 1997 at 18:04:51 PDT
in reply to Re: Best Cap artist? ( Don't laugh ! ) (710), posted by Michael Kaiser on June 13, 1997 at 16:33:53 PDT

> > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Rob Liefeld . Either him, or Mike Deodato . Note that Mike
> > > > > > > > > > > did a cover of Avengers once ( I just can't remember which
> > > > > > > > > > > number it was that he drew ) .

> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > jamie

> > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Oh man, you are a brave one. Rob is an example of how you should NOT draw. He is self-taught. In other words, he knows nothing about proportion (obviously), composition, perspective...etc. He is a terrible example of an artist. I'm going to do you a huge favor; I'm going to give you the names of some phenomenal artists. Go and seek out their work, and look at how they do comics. Compare all the elements in their panels to Robs...the difference will amaze you...they are BURNE HOGARTH (Tarzan), WILL EISNER (The Spirit), WALLY WOOD and JIM STERANKO. Your comic shop dealer will help you. Good art is more than grimacing heroes, big guns and boobs, done up with a lot of croos-hatching. I'm not trying to pick on you Jamie, but seriously, you need to expose yourself to more than just today's Image clones. And that's what they are; clones. Rob can't even draw a realistic foot, for God's sake! You guys, help me out here; am I steering Jamie down the wrong road, or doing him a favor?

> > >
> > > > > > > > > Actually the foot is a bad example being one of the hardest parts of the body to draw, but I heartily agree with your opinion of Rob Liefeld's abilities. When I first found out that Rob Liefeld became popular, I was horrified. But the three artists you've named aren't the only ones you could have mentioned; John Buscema comes to mind and more contemporary artists like Steve Rude, Mike Allred , Paul Chadwick, Mike Mignola, John Romita Jr and Alan Davis.

> > >
> > > > > > > > > Falcon

> > >
> > > > > > > > -Oh, I definitely agree with you. Big John did create "How To Draw Comics the Marvel Way", after all. I'd add him and Romita to my group as "artists with really long careers". The others you mentioned are great examples too, although I was trying to illustrate what a long, distinguished career a really good artist can have. Rob L hasn't been around long enough to have the right to thumb his nose at the industry. Rob is in the stage of "paying his dues", but doesn't have the honesty to perceive it as such. He's the kind of guy that shows up at every convention, showing his portfolio to pros, then getting pissed because they actually try to give him constructive criticism on his art. As in Hollywood, you can't start believing all your own press.

> > >
> > > > > > > > -Great list though, Falcon. I hope we got through to someone.

> > >
> > > > > > > I just want to make one point about your previous message: being self-taught doesn't necessarily mean not drawing welll. It depends on how one teaches one's self. It seems that Liefeld learned to draw strictly from comic books and as any great artist will tell you (except maybe people like Frank Frazetta who allegedly uses no reference) that's not the way to go. You can see it in the way he goes through various phases in copying other peoples work and/or characters, whether it be Jim Lee, John Byrne or Simon Bisley;do you remember his knock-off of Lobo? And now he's going to expectorate this stupid knock-off of Capt. A. I'm dumbfounded that Marvel hired him.

> > >
> > > > > > > Falcon

> > >
> > > > > > I agree; I myself am a self-taught artist, and I work for Planet Hollywood. What is sad to me is that those artists who copy others' work DO get hired. Hall of Heroes comics featured clones of McFarlane (Kanuiga), Liefeld, etc. and now those guys are being touted in magazines like Wizard! Even Jim Lee aped Frank Miller with his Deathblow comic. It's a style rip-off of Sin City. But people like myself sit down with Buscemas book, Hogarth's anatomy book, LISTEN to professionals, and buy lots of books on drawing from the art store. Then, you chain yourself to a table and practice. Every day. Marvel is looking for a fast buck with stunts like HR. They need to please stockholders, pure and simple.

> > >
> > > > > Planet Hollywood? That's cool. What do you do for Planet Hollywood?

> > >
> > > > > Falcon

> > >
> > > > It isn't teaching oneself that is the problem....it is a lack of effort or commitment to improve oneself.
> > > > As for artists who immitate other artists...it is like Liefield's writing or any comic writer who doesn't read anything but comics..."A snake that feeds off of itself is eventually consumed..." The quality just is not what it should be...certainly less than if there were outside influences.

> > >
> > > > A Philosophical Ned

> > >
> > > > P.S. I used to work for Planet Hollywood and then went to Harley Davidson Cafe......sighhhh

> > >
> > > Both you and TLesch work/worked in Planet Hollywood? Small world.

> > > Falcon

> > Wow, that's freaky, unless you were just joking, Ned... but to answer Falcon's question, I am the graphic artist for the merchandise division. Yes, it's just me. Been with PH about a year and a half. I also work for Marvel Mania, since it's another of our concepts. As far as training myself, I guess I was lucky, because I've always loved to read novels in addition to comics. I once worked for TSR as an illustrator, so I've been exposed to fantasy, sci-fi, etc. I may sound like a public service message here, but really, nothing beats a good book for entertainment. Your imagination can tell you things that no movie or comic could. Ah, the wondrous mind..... Ned, what did you do at PH?

> Couldn't help over-"hearing" and uh...noticed there are a lot of artists chewing the fat here. Any of you have pics of Cap you've drawn scanned? *hopeful smile* Could use for my fan art section.

Newbie that I am, could someone tell me the proper way to do this? Thanx!

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Re: Best Cap artist? ( Don't laugh ! ) (713)

Posted by Falcon on June 13, 1997 at 19:13:31 PDT
in reply to Re: Best Cap artist? ( Don't laugh ! ) (710), posted by Michael Kaiser on June 13, 1997 at 16:33:53 PDT

> Couldn't help over-"hearing" and uh...noticed there are a lot of artists chewing the fat here. Any of you have pics of Cap you've drawn scanned? *hopeful smile* Could use for my fan art section.

No, I for one have no drawings of Cap, but perhaps I can drum up something worthy enough to contribute if that would be all right.

Falcon

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Re: Best Cap artist? ( Don't laugh ! ) (714)

Posted by Michael Kaiser on June 13, 1997 at 19:29:42 PDT
in reply to Re: Best Cap artist? ( Don't laugh ! ) (713), posted by Falcon on June 13, 1997 at 19:13:31 PDT

> > Couldn't help over-"hearing" and uh...noticed there are a lot of artists chewing the fat here. Any of you have pics of Cap you've drawn scanned? *hopeful smile* Could use for my fan art section.

> No, I for one have no drawings of Cap, but perhaps I can drum up something worthy enough to contribute if that would be all right.

> Falcon

Alright? That'd be great! I could use the entries. If I get enough, I might even have a competition of sorts. Let me know if you do!

Mike....

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Re: Best Cap artist? ( Don't laugh ! ) (715)

Posted by Michael Kaiser on June 13, 1997 at 19:31:40 PDT
in reply to Re: Best Cap artist? ( Don't laugh ! ) (712), posted by TLesch on June 13, 1997 at 18:04:51 PDT


> > Couldn't help over-"hearing" and uh...noticed there are a lot of artists chewing the fat here. Any of you have pics of Cap you've drawn scanned? *hopeful smile* Could use for my fan art section.

> Newbie that I am, could someone tell me the proper way to do this? Thanx!

Well you have to have a scanner to get in on your computer. They are expensive but if you have access to one it's free, such as through your local library or college. Then just attach the file and mail me. I'll take care of the rest!

Mike....

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Re: Dwyer and Zeck (716)

Posted by Michael Kaiser on June 13, 1997 at 19:37:27 PDT
in reply to Re: Dwyer and Zeck (685), posted by Falcon on June 12, 1997 at 12:16:57 PDT

> >
> > > > > > > Who is the best Cap artist of all time?

>
> > > > >
> > > > > > Kirby certainly defined Cap in action.......but I loved John Byrne's run on the book......

>
> > > > >
> > > > > Any opinions on Mike Zeck or Kieron Dwyer?

>
> > Well, I think I went thru my (predictable) list of favorite Cap artists a month or so ago...should be in the "archives" section at this site. Zeck is great, no doubt about it...I love his art and have been trying to get all his stuff, even his most obscure comics (e.g. Charlton stuff), Master of Kung Fu, etc. I would love to see a checklist of all his work. I had a subscription to Cap from around #260-300, and let it run out when Zeck left, and stopped reading it for a year. Zeck's art greatly contributed to my enjoyment of the series. Having said that, I've enjoyed many of the artists Cap has had over the years...including such non-fan-favorites like Sal Buscema.

>
> > Kieron Dwyer was also great around the time of "The Bloodstone Hunt" with Danny Bulanadi on inks. I absolutely hated Dwyer's work when I saw Cap #350 when it came out...and I still think it's awful stuff. But he somehow became a terrific artist a mere eight issues later or so...I wish he could have done the book longer instead of being replaced by Ron Lim.

>
> > Rob

>
> The look of #350 wasn't Dwyer's fault in my opinion. I think the inking and the coloring was at fault. Al Milgrom's inking gives almost anyone's pencils a sort of rough-shod look and the coloring was too brightish, almost gaudy. Bulanadi was good w/ the Bloodstone Hunt but in later issues of CA it sort of started to get a watered down look(especially with Ron Lim, whose stuff I can't stand).

> Falcon

I'd just like to mention (just because I'm impressed) that Dwyer once did a signing at my local comic shop and as I worked there I got the assignment of driving him to his home three hours away. Three hours of talking to Keiron Dwyer about comic art and cap. I was in heaven. Got an originial page of art from the Bloodstone Hunt too as payment for gas. Great huh?

Mike....

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Re: Best Cap artist? ( Don't laugh ! ) (717)

Posted by Falcon on June 13, 1997 at 19:53:45 PDT
in reply to Re: Best Cap artist? ( Don't laugh ! ) (714), posted by Michael Kaiser on June 13, 1997 at 19:29:42 PDT


> > > Couldn't help over-"hearing" and uh...noticed there are a lot of artists chewing the fat here. Any of you have pics of Cap you've drawn scanned? *hopeful smile* Could use for my fan art section.

> > No, I for one have no drawings of Cap, but perhaps I can drum up something worthy enough to contribute if that would be all right.

> > Falcon

> Alright? That'd be great! I could use the entries. If I get enough, I might even have a competition of sorts. Let me know if you do!

> Mike....

Okay then. I'll see what I can do. I'm eager to see anything TLesch might have to contribute. On a slightly different note, how does one post something on a message board?

Falcon

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Re: Dwyer and Zeck (718)

Posted by Falcon on June 13, 1997 at 19:56:29 PDT
in reply to Re: Dwyer and Zeck (716), posted by Michael Kaiser on June 13, 1997 at 19:37:27 PDT


> > >
> > > > > > > > Who is the best Cap artist of all time?

> >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Kirby certainly defined Cap in action.......but I loved John Byrne's run on the book......

> >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Any opinions on Mike Zeck or Kieron Dwyer?

> >
> > > Well, I think I went thru my (predictable) list of favorite Cap artists a month or so ago...should be in the "archives" section at this site. Zeck is great, no doubt about it...I love his art and have been trying to get all his stuff, even his most obscure comics (e.g. Charlton stuff), Master of Kung Fu, etc. I would love to see a checklist of all his work. I had a subscription to Cap from around #260-300, and let it run out when Zeck left, and stopped reading it for a year. Zeck's art greatly contributed to my enjoyment of the series. Having said that, I've enjoyed many of the artists Cap has had over the years...including such non-fan-favorites like Sal Buscema.

> >
> > > Kieron Dwyer was also great around the time of "The Bloodstone Hunt" with Danny Bulanadi on inks. I absolutely hated Dwyer's work when I saw Cap #350 when it came out...and I still think it's awful stuff. But he somehow became a terrific artist a mere eight issues later or so...I wish he could have done the book longer instead of being replaced by Ron Lim.

> >
> > > Rob

> >
> > The look of #350 wasn't Dwyer's fault in my opinion. I think the inking and the coloring was at fault. Al Milgrom's inking gives almost anyone's pencils a sort of rough-shod look and the coloring was too brightish, almost gaudy. Bulanadi was good w/ the Bloodstone Hunt but in later issues of CA it sort of started to get a watered down look(especially with Ron Lim, whose stuff I can't stand).

> > Falcon

> I'd just like to mention (just because I'm impressed) that Dwyer once did a signing at my local comic shop and as I worked there I got the assignment of driving him to his home three hours away. Three hours of talking to Keiron Dwyer about comic art and cap. I was in heaven. Got an originial page of art from the Bloodstone Hunt too as payment for gas. Great huh?

> Mike....

Yes, very. Do you know what Mr. Dwyer is up to these days? And also, is it true that he's John Byrne's adopted son?

Falcon

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Re: Dwyer and Zeck (719)

Posted by Michael Kaiser on June 13, 1997 at 22:28:18 PDT
in reply to Re: Dwyer and Zeck (718), posted by Falcon on June 13, 1997 at 19:56:29 PDT

> Yes, very. Do you know what Mr. Dwyer is up to these days? And also, is it true that he's John Byrne's adopted son?

> Falcon

It is true that he was once John Byrne's step son but that ceased to be when John divorced his mother. As far as what he is currently doing, I have not heard anything. Last I heard from him, he drew two issues of the Torch of Liberty for Dark Horse Comics. Sort of a Cap rip off of the Next Men Universe.

Mike....

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Re: Best Cap artist? ( Don't laugh ! ) (720)

Posted by Michael Kaiser on June 13, 1997 at 22:30:45 PDT
in reply to Re: Best Cap artist? ( Don't laugh ! ) (717), posted by Falcon on June 13, 1997 at 19:53:45 PDT


> Okay then. I'll see what I can do. I'm eager to see anything TLesch might have to contribute. On a slightly different note, how does one post something on a message board?

> Falcon

I'm assuming you mean a New message? Just scroll to the bottom of the screen. There is a box down there for new messages.

Mike....

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Re: Best Cap artist? (721)

Posted by Michael Kaiser on June 13, 1997 at 22:39:49 PDT
in reply to Re: Best Cap artist? (680), posted by Ned Leeds Jr. on June 12, 1997 at 10:02:07 PDT

> > > > > Who is the best Cap artist of all time?

> > >
> > > > Kirby certainly defined Cap in action.......but I loved John Byrne's run on the book......

> > >
> > > Any opinions on Mike Zeck or Kieron Dwyer?

> > I guess I'll always have a soft spot in my heart for Zeck's run because that's when I first started reading Cap, with issue #271. He added a lot dynamic qualities to story.
> > KlaatuVeradaNikto

> Cap was definitely Zeck's best work ...his stuff looked good!!!! But did you catch Secret Wars????? Awful.....everyone was in a square form....yuck...
> I can't remember Dwyer by name...sorry.
> Ned

Dwyer drew the entire Bloodstone Hunt. That should help your memory. heh. He also drew the majority of the issues leading up to and beyond 350 (the final show down between Steve Rogers and John Walker).

Mike....

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Re: Hey,I'm #4400!!! (722)

Posted by Michael Kaiser on June 13, 1997 at 22:48:19 PDT
in reply to Hey,I'm #4400!!! (684), posted by The Plaid Skull on June 12, 1997 at 12:08:22 PDT

> Hey,I'm #4400!!! Do I get a prize or something?:)

>
> Cya
> The Plaid Skull

>
> Whenever there is injustice, tyranny, ruthlessness...the Plaid Skull was there!!

Uh....*looks around for some help* Uh....*seeing no one rushing to his aid, he smiles warily to The Plaid Skull* Uh...will a lollipop work? *smiles hopefully*

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Re: Cap's return (723)

Posted by Michael Kaiser on June 13, 1997 at 22:52:44 PDT
in reply to Cap's return (683), posted by mtowens on June 12, 1997 at 11:19:49 PDT

> Does any fan out there know if Captain America, the FF, the Avengers etc. will ever be restored to their old continuity (pre onslaught). If so please e-mail me with what I would consider very good news.
> Tod

Yeppers. They are returning. Not sure the exact date. Dave probably knows. His page is at http://www.sigma.net/capt_am/index.htm I also believe that Waid and Garney will return to the book after all gets back to normal.

Mike....

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Re: Sal Buscema (724)

Posted by Rob on June 14, 1997 at 00:40:12 PDT
in reply to Sal Buscema (704), posted by KlaatuVeradaNikto on June 13, 1997 at 09:26:00 PDT


> Having said that, I've enjoyed many of the artists Cap has had over the years...including such non-fan-favorites like Sal Buscema.

> I really hate that Sal Buscema's work on Cap goes so unappreciated. I think he really did some great stuff. His Hulk is still my personal favorite. Sal with the right inker (isn't that true with any artist?) is a great artist.
> KlaatuVeradaNikto

I tended to like his stuff with inkers like Mike Esposito (& some others...can't recall them off hand). I liked that Hulk/Cap cross-over he did the art for around 1979. Sal's Cap always seemed to be the basic rendition of Cap for me...even moreso than Kirby's, whose art was less "generic" perhaps, more individualistic than Sal's. I didn't like when they had Kim DeMulder inking Sal around #285...the styles didn't mesh. Sal Buscema is going to be penciling Journey Into Mystery #513 (inking by Milgrom) in August, according to PREVIEWS, and I'm looking forward to it.

Rob

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Re: Dwyer (725)

Posted by Rob on June 14, 1997 at 00:58:05 PDT
in reply to Re: Dwyer and Zeck (719), posted by Michael Kaiser on June 13, 1997 at 22:28:18 PDT


> > Yes, very. Do you know what Mr. Dwyer is up to these days? And also, is it true that he's John Byrne's adopted son?

> > Falcon

> It is true that he was once John Byrne's step son but that ceased to be when John divorced his mother. As far as what he is currently doing, I have not heard anything. Last I heard from him, he drew two issues of the Torch of Liberty for Dark Horse Comics. Sort of a Cap rip off of the Next Men Universe.

> Mike....


This is fascinating...something i never knew...altho i noticed that one of Dwyer's Cap covers...the one where Magneto is standing over the fallen Red Skull (relying on memory here)...Dwyer's art on that looked very much like Byrne's style of art. Mike, you are one lucky guy to be able to hang out with Dwyer & get a page of his... And Falcon, i agree with what you had to say Re: #350's coloring & inking.

Rob

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National Origin of the BeeGees is...? (726)

Posted by Timber Wolf-By-Night on June 14, 1997 at 01:01:41 PDT
in reply to Re: Come on David.... (611), posted by Ned Leeds Jr. on June 07, 1997 at 07:55:51 PDT

> >
> > > ....but David...would you at least agree that he deserves
maiming or at least a good whupping????
> >
> > How about a compromise...make him listen to 400 hours of Bee Gees?

> > Nahh. Kill him first. More humane. :)

> > -DM

> Come on David. Nothing is more american than the Bee Gees..I bet that
Cap listened to them in the 70's.

Actually, aren't the BeeGees from England or Australia?

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Re: Best Cap artist? ( Don't laugh ! ) (727)

Posted by Ned Leeds Jr. on June 14, 1997 at 06:28:03 PDT
in reply to Re: Best Cap artist? ( Don't laugh ! ) (705), posted by TLesch on June 13, 1997 at 10:25:05 PDT

> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Rob Liefeld . Either him, or Mike Deodato . Note that Mike
> > > > > > > > > > did a cover of Avengers once ( I just can't remember which
> > > > > > > > > > number it was that he drew ) .

> >
> > > > > > > > > > jamie

> >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Oh man, you are a brave one. Rob is an example of how you should NOT draw. He is self-taught. In other words, he knows nothing about proportion (obviously), composition, perspective...etc. He is a terrible example of an artist. I'm going to do you a huge favor; I'm going to give you the names of some phenomenal artists. Go and seek out their work, and look at how they do comics. Compare all the elements in their panels to Robs...the difference will amaze you...they are BURNE HOGARTH (Tarzan), WILL EISNER (The Spirit), WALLY WOOD and JIM STERANKO. Your comic shop dealer will help you. Good art is more than grimacing heroes, big guns and boobs, done up with a lot of croos-hatching. I'm not trying to pick on you Jamie, but seriously, you need to expose yourself to more than just today's Image clones. And that's what they are; clones. Rob can't even draw a realistic foot, for God's sake! You guys, help me out here; am I steering Jamie down the wrong road, or doing him a favor?

> >
> > > > > > > > Actually the foot is a bad example being one of the hardest parts of the body to draw, but I heartily agree with your opinion of Rob Liefeld's abilities. When I first found out that Rob Liefeld became popular, I was horrified. But the three artists you've named aren't the only ones you could have mentioned; John Buscema comes to mind and more contemporary artists like Steve Rude, Mike Allred , Paul Chadwick, Mike Mignola, John Romita Jr and Alan Davis.

> >
> > > > > > > > Falcon

> >
> > > > > > > -Oh, I definitely agree with you. Big John did create "How To Draw Comics the Marvel Way", after all. I'd add him and Romita to my group as "artists with really long careers". The others you mentioned are great examples too, although I was trying to illustrate what a long, distinguished career a really good artist can have. Rob L hasn't been around long enough to have the right to thumb his nose at the industry. Rob is in the stage of "paying his dues", but doesn't have the honesty to perceive it as such. He's the kind of guy that shows up at every convention, showing his portfolio to pros, then getting pissed because they actually try to give him constructive criticism on his art. As in Hollywood, you can't start believing all your own press.

> >
> > > > > > > -Great list though, Falcon. I hope we got through to someone.

> >
> > > > > > I just want to make one point about your previous message: being self-taught doesn't necessarily mean not drawing welll. It depends on how one teaches one's self. It seems that Liefeld learned to draw strictly from comic books and as any great artist will tell you (except maybe people like Frank Frazetta who allegedly uses no reference) that's not the way to go. You can see it in the way he goes through various phases in copying other peoples work and/or characters, whether it be Jim Lee, John Byrne or Simon Bisley;do you remember his knock-off of Lobo? And now he's going to expectorate this stupid knock-off of Capt. A. I'm dumbfounded that Marvel hired him.

> >
> > > > > > Falcon

> >
> > > > > I agree; I myself am a self-taught artist, and I work for Planet Hollywood. What is sad to me is that those artists who copy others' work DO get hired. Hall of Heroes comics featured clones of McFarlane (Kanuiga), Liefeld, etc. and now those guys are being touted in magazines like Wizard! Even Jim Lee aped Frank Miller with his Deathblow comic. It's a style rip-off of Sin City. But people like myself sit down with Buscemas book, Hogarth's anatomy book, LISTEN to professionals, and buy lots of books on drawing from the art store. Then, you chain yourself to a table and practice. Every day. Marvel is looking for a fast buck with stunts like HR. They need to please stockholders, pure and simple.

> >
> > > > Planet Hollywood? That's cool. What do you do for Planet Hollywood?

> >
> > > > Falcon

> >
> > > It isn't teaching oneself that is the problem....it is a lack of effort or commitment to improve oneself.
> > > As for artists who immitate other artists...it is like Liefield's writing or any comic writer who doesn't read anything but comics..."A snake that feeds off of itself is eventually consumed..." The quality just is not what it should be...certainly less than if there were outside influences.

> >
> > > A Philosophical Ned

> >
> > > P.S. I used to work for Planet Hollywood and then went to Harley Davidson Cafe......sighhhh

> >
> > Both you and TLesch work/worked in Planet Hollywood? Small world.

> > Falcon

> Wow, that's freaky, unless you were just joking, Ned... but to answer Falcon's question, I am the graphic artist for the merchandise division. Yes, it's just me. Been with PH about a year and a half. I also work for Marvel Mania, since it's another of our concepts. As far as training myself, I guess I was lucky, because I've always loved to read novels in addition to comics. I once worked for TSR as an illustrator, so I've been exposed to fantasy, sci-fi, etc. I may sound like a public service message here, but really, nothing beats a good book for entertainment. Your imagination can tell you things that no movie or comic could. Ah, the wondrous mind..... Ned, what did you do at PH?

Just joking??!??? Come on, when have youi known me to joke???....um bad question. I was in NYC for 5 years worked at PH in NYC for 3 months before landing a good waiting job at Harley and making lots more money.....BTW, it is not such a small world where PH is concerned....they have dozens of restaurants all over the world now... :-)

A Stallone Like Ned

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Re: Secret Wars (728)

Posted by Ned Leeds Jr. on June 14, 1997 at 06:31:09 PDT
in reply to Re: Secret Wars (707), posted by Rob on June 13, 1997 at 10:32:53 PDT

>
> > I would have to say that Zeck's work in SW had its ups and downs. Probably the reason for its somewhat substandard look (compared to Zeck's other stuff) might have been Zeck's commitment to other stuff at the time (I'm not sure about that; wasn't he doing Captain America then?), not to mention the fact that he had all these heros and villains to draw many of which he had no prior experience in drawing.

> > Falcon

> I think (if memory serves; could be wrong) that Zeck left Cap to do Secret Wars....I think that's why I never bought Secret Wars (until years later).

> Rob

Rob...that is my memory too. We must get our memory chips at the same place!!!! Not drawing a character doesn't hold water as an excuse for lame artwork. Otherwise, I wouldn't dislike Liefeld as much....although Agent America does look pretty good...*snicker*


A Baaaaaaad Ned

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Re: Best Cap artist? (729)

Posted by Ned Leeds Jr. on June 14, 1997 at 06:33:12 PDT
in reply to Re: Best Cap artist? (721), posted by Michael Kaiser on June 13, 1997 at 22:39:49 PDT

> > > > > > Who is the best Cap artist of all time?

> > > >
> > > > > Kirby certainly defined Cap in action.......but I loved John Byrne's run on the book......

> > > >
> > > > Any opinions on Mike Zeck or Kieron Dwyer?

> > > I guess I'll always have a soft spot in my heart for Zeck's run because that's when I first started reading Cap, with issue #271. He added a lot dynamic qualities to story.
> > > KlaatuVeradaNikto

> > Cap was definitely Zeck's best work ...his stuff looked good!!!! But did you catch Secret Wars????? Awful.....everyone was in a square form....yuck...
> > I can't remember Dwyer by name...sorry.
> > Ned

> Dwyer drew the entire Bloodstone Hunt. That should help your memory. heh. He also drew the majority of the issues leading up to and beyond 350 (the final show down between Steve Rogers and John Walker).

> Mike....

Thanks Mike...now I remember him. Pretty good stuff....but everyone's faces seemed slightly out of focus.....nice soft look to it though....

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Heroes Reborn Re-cap (730)

Posted by Michael Kaiser on June 14, 1997 at 09:20:33 PDT

So now that it is almost all over, I was just wondering if any of you Cap fans out there found anything good that came out of Heroes Reborn.

I did.

I think the color job on Cap's shield improved.

Uh...

Yup that's it.

Mike....

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Captain America: The Classic Years (731)

Posted by Edward Strickland on June 14, 1997 at 10:50:25 PDT

I am interested in finding out if anyone has a copy of the 2-volume
Captain America: The Classic Years for sale and at what price.

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Re: Death to Liefeld! (732)

Posted by Michael Kaiser on June 14, 1997 at 20:22:20 PDT
in reply to Re: Death to Liefeld! (665), posted by Fenris Ulf on June 11, 1997 at 07:05:11 PDT

> > Ha! That scummy bastard Liefeld is off Cap! That loser not only desecrated Cap's uniform with that stupid winged thing on his head, but the storyline was absolutely pathetic! And now he thinks we're supposed to feel sorry for him and buy his crappy 'Agent America?' Not a chance! Who's with me?
> > Bucky

>
> I don't think he should be killed... I think he should be boycotted!

Knowing his luck that would just make him a martyr. I can see it now. The Liefeld School of Sequential Art and Design. Aaaah!

Mike....

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Captain Returns, as stated from Waid and Garney. (733)

Posted by Hal/Wally in 2000 on June 14, 1997 at 20:38:40 PDT

I attended the Heroes Return question and answer session at Heroes Con today and learned the following. Sharon Carter will be back, Cap. to return to Japan and question Americas involvement in the tradations of other nations. There is going to be a WWII Invaders issue, Cap. will seek out someone to train incase he ever vansishes again. And more info to come tommorow.

Hal.

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